Transcript:
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add On Education Network. The podcast where we explore the weekly Come follow me discussion and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here with my friend and this show’s producer, Nate Pyfer.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: What’s up?
[00:00:30] Speaker A: Good to have you here, Nate. How are you doing?
[00:00:33] Speaker B: I’m living the dream.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: Oh, nice, nice. Hey, you know, in this episode we’re going to talk about the law of God as it is given in section 42. And just a little heads up, there is a lot of content in this section 42 is 93 verses long. And as I look back on last week, we went almost an hour and a half. There’s just a lot of content. We’ll try to keep it contained, but it’s tough.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: We’ve been, we’ve been kind of trying to think of after last week’s especially because, I mean, that’s, that was a lot of content for us to go over. We’re trying to kind of figure out a way to keep these at like a reasonable listening time.
We are open to suggestions. If you have any thoughts or comments, please feel free to email us at hi@weeklydeepdive.com with any other questions or comments. But specifically, I think one of the ideas we’re thinking of is maybe doing, is maybe doing a podcast or podcasting and covering really all of the, all of the stuff and then maybe just doing a like a one hour or less like version of it. Yeah, like main thing of it. And then maybe doing like bonus content that you can access on the website or something like that. So I don’t know if you have any, if you have any suggestions or thoughts on that. We’re trying to think of the best way to do that and also a way that doesn’t kill us to doing, you know, sections like this that have three chapters that have so much stuff in it. But anyways, yeah, we want to keep.
[00:02:09] Speaker A: Them digestible, but we also want to talk about what you want to talk about. As I look back at last week, there are so many cool things there in section 38 that we didn’t even quite get to. To wrap into it. But we will do our best and we would love to hear from you, see what suggestions you have and work out something that is going to work for everybody going forward.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: Cool. Let’s do it.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Okay. Starting in Section 41, it says, those that hear the word of the Lord, he says, I will bless you with the greatest of all blessings. And those that hear not curse you with the heaviest of all cursings. Yes, that is kind of heavy. Right?
And the Lord’s saying, I love to bless you and I will bless you.
This was something that, if you don’t mind just going back to the Old Testament, something that cracked me up when I would read it. When the Lord says, and I will curse you with a curse, you’re like, well, what else were you going to curse them with? It just seems a little redundant. Right. Maybe you could curse me with a blessing next time.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: I’d be okay with that.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: But here he is coming in a little bit heavy. I will curse you with the heaviest of all cursings.
And that’s to those that hear it or don’t. Right? So in verse five, it says, he that receiveth my law and doeth it the same as my disciple. Those that receive it and doeth it not, they’re going to be cast out. And think about the context of this when he’s saying, I want you to gather to the Ohio. And a big point, if you haven’t caught this, as we’ve been going through Doctrine and Covenants, is gathering, gather and gather. And it’s not so much that he is going to be cursing. Something that I have noticed, as we have been reading through a lot of these Doctrine and Covenants, is it’s not that the Lord is going to be intentionally going after you with the stick as much as a lot of the times it is natural consequences. Gather together and you are going to be blessed. If you don’t gather with the saints, you are kind of going to be left out in the dark.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: Well, in this case, too, like, very much even, like physically, like, literally, you know, like you’re going to be physically abused and persecuted and ran out of town. It’s like, this just makes sense. Like, I don’t know, logistically, I guess. You know, I mean, like, this just makes sense from a. From a logical standpoint of like, hey, go and there’s strength in numbers and, and go and be with other people so that it’ll lessen the. The chance of you being out on your own getting, you know, know, physically abused and, you know, hurt or killed.
[00:04:39] Speaker A: And there’s something comforting when you’ve got people getting tarred and feathered and afflictions and problems happening with knowing that you’re not necessarily going through it alone. Right. As you’re going through this. If you were the only one going through, that would be one thing. But if you can kind of have a support group that you can get together with and talk about what’s been going on and what’s happened. Sometimes there’s a little bit of comfort in being surrounded with people that can relate to what you’re going through and have been through similar circumstances themselves.
And when we talk about the greatest blessings, he says, I’ll bless you with the greatest of all blessings. So what is the greatest of all blessings? What is God going to bless them with that could possibly be the greatest of all blessings?
[00:05:22] Speaker B: Well, it says it right in there. Right. I mean, you said it’s like it says in there what the greatest of all blessings is and what the greatest of all curses is. Right. Or am I missing this? The greatest of all blessings is seeing God again. Right. Like living with Heavenly Father. And the worst of all curses is being cast out or being. Isn’t that what it says? I don’t know.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: I think you’re right. Right. Being together with the people that you love and being able to be there. But I think even taking it one step further in my mind, anyways, peace of mind and happiness. Right.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: You’re saying, while we’re on this earth, what is the greatest of all gifts? Yeah, I totally agree. Then it’s peace. Like, it’s the peace that the Holy Ghost.
Peace in the storm. I totally agree with you.
[00:06:06] Speaker A: Right, right. Because you look at people that seem to have it all, but if they’re lacking peace, they’re always looking for something else.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: Exactly. Right.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: They’re not content. Right. Having it all is not enough because there’s always something else. If that’s what you’re chasing or if you have nothing at all and you want something else that lack that being. I don’t know.
Not being content is almost the greatest curse. But it also could be considered a great blessing because it drives you to trying to get it. But that, I don’t know. There’s a quote that Joseph Smith said that I really like. He said, happiness is the object and design of our existence.
And I tend to agree with that. I think everything that we do, we do to try to be happy. And whether we have a good perception of what’s going to make us happy or not, still, the things that we chase. The reason why people do drugs is because it makes them feel happy. I would think for the most part, they’re chasing a form of happiness, whether it’s lasting or not. A lot of the things that we do, we do because we think it will make us happy or think it will make us content. So he says, happiness is the object and design of our Existence, and it will be the end thereof if we pursue the path that leads to it. And this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping. All, all the commandments of God. The whole purpose of all of this, the end of it, is happiness, to be content. And so when God says, I will bless you with the greatest of all blessings to me, it’s this sense of happiness and contentment that you have peace. And when he talks about the cursing, the heaviest of all cursings, in my mind, you just can’t be happy because you know you didn’t do something you were supposed to. There’s something lingering in there. There’s something that’s driving you nuts and you can’t rest until it’s taken care of. It’s more of a natural consequence to not following what he’s directing you on.
Let’s move.
Just one quick note about, I guess, assembling these guys together.
It’s something that he’s going to talk about a little bit more and says that there’s strength in coming together and talking about the word of God. There’s strength in coming together and understanding it. And the Lord’s actually going to give them a commandment that they pull together and they talk about the word of the Lord and understand it, and something that they’re required to do when they assemble in our minds. It might be super easy, right? Well, why don’t they just go to church on Sunday and assemble themselves together and call it good, Right? But as you remember, if they’re calling them to leave their land, leave their possession, leave everything and gather to the Ohio, they’re having to sell a lot of their property, they’re having to give up a lot.
And the Lord is not shy in asking them to drop everything so that they can find that strength in numbers and give it up.
When I think about what is being required in the sacrifice that the Lord is asking, it just reminds me of lectures on faith when he says, a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.
And asking people right off the bat at the start, a young church, to be able to be willing to sell everything that you have and give it up and gather and then tell them, if you do this, you’re going to be blessed with the greatest of all blessings. And if you don’t, I’m going to curse you with the heaviest of all cursings. He’s asking a lot from these people, but what else do we expect? This is the same God that asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. And we will be asked to do hard things. And sometimes it is going to be uncomfortable, or sometimes we have to be willing to give up something that we care a lot about.
In the end, if we don’t give that up, if we hold it back, it’s always going to be bothering us, it’s going to be disturbing us, and it’s that lack of peace, that lack of contentment. Whereas if we give it up, we find out that we receive something we were looking for, we didn’t even realize we were looking for.
And then verse two, it says, I give you a commandment that you shall slumber yourselves together to agree upon my word. And so it’s not just the sack that they need to gather themselves together, but he says here he throws in to agree upon my word. So why is it important that we gather together to agree upon the Lord’s word? I mean, doesn’t he just give it to us and that’s it, that’s the end of the deal?
What’s the merit in gathering to agree? Can’t we just agree on our own without having to be gathered together?
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Who are you agreeing with if you’re just by yourself, though? Ah, see, huh.
[00:10:46] Speaker A: That’s a good point.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: That’s right. It’s a good point.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: And I think there’s some merit to that. I mean, you look at when Oliver Cowdery challenged Joseph Smith in Doctrine and covenants section 20 and demanded that he rewrite the Lord’s words. And Joseph Smith is like, wait, wait, wait, I can’t change what God said. If it was me, sure, I’ll change it all day long. But I think there’s some value when the Lord speaks and us gathering together to understand what the Lord says. Many times when he speaks or says something, maybe we look at it like Oliver Cowdery and we think that he is wrong, or we think that somebody has misspoke and we have kind of this misperception of what has been said. Like Oliver thinking, oh, this is going to be priestcraft. It had nothing to do with priestcraft, but having the opportunity to express that and talk with somebody else, it gave him the opportunity to kind of fix his perception on it. Right?
And as I think about this idea of discussing the word of God and trying to come to an understanding of what it means. One of the greatest, I think, sticking points between science and religion, for example, is this idea of creation. You have creationists and evolutionists and this argument and this fight that goes back and forth and understanding well, this is what the word of the Lord says, but this is what science says. Do they agree? Do they not agree?
It’s a debate that’s been raging for a while, right?
And maybe what science is saying isn’t wrong. Maybe what the Bible is saying isn’t wrong. Maybe what’s wrong is our perception of what science is saying. Or maybe what’s wrong is how we interpret what the Bible is saying.
As I go back and I read the creation account, it’s fascinating to me that when God creates animals on day four, mind you, which is earlier, right, Man’s not coming on the stage till day six, and you have animals coming on here a couple days before. But where does life come from? Does God say, hey, and I magically, like, put life here on the earth out of nothing? Did I create it from the dust? He says he created man from the dust. But do you remember where life comes from on day four?
[00:13:10] Speaker B: The water.
[00:13:11] Speaker A: It’s. It. That’s water, man.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: I’m. Dude, I’m crushing it right now.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: You’re batting.100 right here.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: I am. I don’t even have this in front of me, but if I do, I’m.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: Not looking at it 100%, I should say, because isn’t 100 like a bad average? Adding a thousand, that’s what we’re looking for. Okay.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: Come on, Jason.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: Batting a thousand. I’m sorry.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: See? That’s all right. I just hit another one.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Dude, you’re knocking them out of the way.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: 3.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Yeah. So if life is coming from the ocean, God’s taking all the land, the life on the land, and pulling it from the seas, which already has life. How does that disagree with science? Maybe science isn’t wrong. Maybe the religion, the Bible, the word of God isn’t wrong. Maybe what’s wrong is how we perceive or how we hear, how we understand. So I think there’s a lot of worth when God says, here, I command you to get together to discuss my word, that you can agree upon the word of God. And then this is a precursor. You have to agree upon the word of God before you receive the law of God.
And what’s the difference between the word of God and the law of God?
Is there a difference? I mean, God speaks and that’s the law, right?
[00:14:23] Speaker B: I mean, I cannot wait for you to explain this one to me. I’m not going to try because I want to keep my batting average correct.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: All right.
You know, I’m not 100% sure what the difference between the law and the word of God is. But for me, as I look at this, and he says that the word of the Lord is going to come from Jerusalem and the law of the Lord is going to come from Zion. In Isaiah, it talks about this. It is hard for me to read these scriptures and not think the word of the Lord coming from Jerusalem. Well, out of Jerusalem came Judaism, and out of Jerusalem came Christianity. And out of Jerusalem came the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament. And the Bible we believe to be the word of God.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: As far as it is translated correctly.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: As far as it is translated.
[00:15:16] Speaker B: I think the caveat is important. Maybe it is.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: It is important.
But this is what we view as the Word of God. So if that is the Word of God, what about the law of God? In my mind, I almost look at this as the word of God being associated with the church and the law of God being associated with the kingdom.
And when he says the word comes out of Jerusalem, we see that already. But when he says the law coming out of Zion, I almost look at America as the New Jerusalem or this Zion society that God brought. People looking for religious freedom to worship God according to the dictates of their cautious land of liberty here. And they were inspired even from when they were coming across the Mayflower and they had the Mayflower Compact in the early forms of government. You had the Revolutionary War, the very first time a written constitution was ever produced. And this constitution has now been adopted the world over, according to Elder Oaks in the last conference. Everywhere but three countries. And to me, that’s almost the governance, the word of God, the law, excuse me, the law of God, these laws. I almost look at it like that, like America being the New Jerusalem that produced this constitution, this written law that went the world over, that was really to preserve the agency of the people and allow people to be agents to themselves. And the word of the Lord being this religious idea, the Scriptures, the Bible, the Old Testament. So in my mind, it kind of fits that model. But here it is a little bit different, right? Because he has given them the Word. He has given them instructions. You go do this or go do that. Here is what the Word. This is what the Lord wants you to do. But now he is going to reveal to them their law. And that’s what Section 42 is all about. Section 42 is the law of God. And this is God’s kingdom. And in order for there to be a kingdom on earth, a kingdom is ruling, right? And in order to rule, you have to have a set of rules. And you have to have subjects that subject themselves to those rules. And that’s what the Lord has established in these last days, is a kingdom whereby he is our king. And this talked about this a little bit in 38. We didn’t get to last time. But this idea that at the end of the world, the Lord is going to establish a kingdom and he will be our ruler instead of having other rulers. And these are the rules that he wants us to follow. And as we follow these rules, we become his subjects. And for those that might be waiting for this kingdom to come, you know the Lord’s kingdom will come in the last days, right? This millennial kingdom, the kingdom is here.
And this is a proclamation to the world that the quorum of the Twelve Apostles wrote in 1845, shortly after the death of the prophet Joseph Smith. And I’m just going to quote right from the beginning of this, it says to all the kings of the world, to the president of the United States of America, to the governors of the several states, and to the rulers and people of all nations. So just look at that header, right? We have the proclamation to the world on the family. To all the world. But this one is specifically addressed to rulers, kingdoms. This idea that the kings of the world, the president, to all the governors, to the rulers.
Greeting. I like that simple.
[00:18:52] Speaker B: I do. When I was looking at our outline. Greeting.
[00:18:57] Speaker A: Greeting.
[00:18:59] Speaker B: I need to change how I start emails.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Greeting. That’s a good way to start it from now on. And it says, know ye that the kingdom of God has come, as has been predicted by ancient prophets and prayed for in all ages. Even that kingdom which shall fill the whole earth and shall stand forever, it has come.
And the whole proclamation is worth reading. Not necessarily here in this podcast, but if you want to look it up, it’s really cool. They make these statements, know this that God lives, and we know this to be true. And it almost says this after every statement. And we know this to be true, and we know this to be true. And it’s a pretty powerful declaration proclamation that they’re sending to the rulers that now here we have a kingdom. In order for you to have a kingdom, you’ve got to have laws. And that’s what Section 42 is all about. So 41 was, get together, understand the word of the Lord, and when you’ve done that, then I shall give you the law of the Lord. Then kind of fitting that same pattern as you take a step back and paint again with those broader strokes, you’re looking at Jerusalem being the word of The Lord. And now after that, you have the law of the Lord, the kingdom of God. And going even back further to the Book of Revelation, right? You have this idea of the woman that was going to give birth to a man child. The man child was the kingdom of God. But before the kingdom of God, the devil was there, the dragon to wage war, and the kingdom fled. Right? The kingdom never got established, but the Word of God did. So the Word comes first, then followed by the law. And you kind of see that happening in a smaller play out here. First understand the Word, then I’m going to send you the law.
So let’s go into the law and the whole first part of the law. In Doctrine And Covenants, section 42, it’s verses 4 through 16, is a commandment to go out and teach the Gospel two by two. Not just to those who are not members of the church, but they also give instructions to the priests, teachers, deacons, to strengthen the members of the church as well. So the very first part of the law isn’t, thou shalt this or thou shalt that. It’s wait, wait, wait. Go and get everybody first, and then let’s give them the law. So I think that’s really cool. The priority that is putting here first before I give you the law, first and foremost, get everybody here you can. And if you haven’t noticed, we harp on this every single time. Doctrine Covenants is so much about gathering. Get them together, bring them here, get them. Whatever you do, pull everyone together, and then let’s do this. And when we’re talking, Christ was asked in the New Testament, right, Which is the greatest commandment. And he sums it up beautifully with, first, love God and then love your neighbor, like unto yourself.
And this to me, is almost like those first two commandments, because he’s about to go through all of these other ones. Don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t commit adultery. But before he does, first and foremost, show love and bring those to me. If you love me, then you’ll bring me my children. If you love your neighbor, then you’ll teach them and bring them here. That’s first and foremost, love and bring us together. Then I can give you the law.
All right, the second thing, let’s see, moving to.
It says, and the Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith. And if you receive not the Spirit, you shall not teach. This is in section 42, and I think the phrasing here is important. It doesn’t say, and the Spirit shall be given unto you. By the prayer of faith. And if God doesn’t give you the Spirit, you shall not teach. And it doesn’t say, and if you don’t have the Spirit, you shall not teach. It says, if you receive not the Spirit, you shall not teach.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: So it’s a personal thing. It’s us.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So God’s almost saying, look, if you have a prayer of faith, I will always send you the Spirit.
It is not going to be a shortcoming on me. It is not my part. If you don’t receive it, that is on you.
And if it is on you that you don’t receive it, don’t open your mouth.
That has kind of been a key part of teaching the Gospel throughout. Something that always you talk about and focus on as a missionary, make sure that you have the Spirit.
Joseph Smith, when he was translating the Book of Mormon and he got into a disagreement with his wife and that was bothering him, and he went to try to translate the plates and he couldn’t get anywhere with it. He had to stop and make sure that he had the Spirit first, make things right with her, and then he could go forward and teach. How many times do we need to stop and fix things to make sure that we are feeling good and we can feel the Spirit before we instruct? And it’s not just as missionaries, though, when we have issues, like a child who doesn’t necessarily follow the rules, maybe comes back a little bit later than they’re supposed to or does something that you’re not happy with them doing. Right. And if you’re letting anger or frustration take over to the point where you’re going to come and just lay into your kid, maybe that’s not the best time to be teaching them and helping them to understand what went wrong. Maybe in all instances, not just when you are teaching the gospel, but in all instances where you are trying to teach and bring others to Christ, whether it be your child or whoever, you should stop and say, am I in the right Spirit to be able to do this? Am I receiving the inspiration I need to handle this discussion?
Okay. And then it says, until the fullness of my scripture is given, he’s talking about them teaching by the Spirit until the fullness of my scripture is given.
And I thought that was an odd phrase.
So at some point in time, are we going to have a fullness of Scripture where we don’t need to rely on revelation anymore? What’s he talking about here? And what does he mean by fullness of Scripture? Right. Didn’t we say, okay, we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it’s translated correctly. But. But we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. The Book of Mormon is the word of God. That makes it complete, right? It contains the fullness of the gospel. So now we have the fullness of Scripture. Are we not there or what’s he saying? Until the fullness of my scripture has been given.
The Book of Mormon’s already been translated. They already have it. And he’s saying there’s something more, something missing.
And to me, this is one of the biggest messages in the Book of Mormon. I can’t even get out of first Nephi chapter one without seeing this sense of something is missing. Hit me over and over. And to tell you what I mean, Lehi, he has his very first vision in Book of Mormon, Chapter 1, Verse 1, the Book of Nephi that is recorded.
And that whole vision, what did he see?
The whole description is summed up with, and he saw and heard much. One single word. That’s it. Much. Really much. It was so much. What was it? And not only was it so much, says that it did cause him to quake and tremble exceedingly.
What did he see that caused him to quake and tremble so much? Insomuch that he stopped everything he was doing, returned to his own house at Jerusalem and cast himself upon his bed. Awesome. What was it? Nothing. The scriptures do not tell us a thing about what he saw.
We are left playing a guessing game. Much, much, that is it, the one word description that tells us so little. Ironically enough, in his second vision, remember, the reason he has it is because he was praying with all of his heart on behalf of his people.
And the Lord shows him this grand vision of God sitting on his throne, surrounded with numerous concourses of angels. And he sees one descending out of the midst of heaven with 12 others following him. And they give him a book and bade him to read. And he reads, woe, woe unto Jerusalem, for you’re going to be destroyed. They’re going to be carried away captive into Babylon and it’s going to go bad. They’re going to perish by the sword. And Lehi rejoices. What?
Why is he so happy? What’s he rejoicing about?
[00:27:28] Speaker B: Much.
[00:27:32] Speaker A: There’S a disconnect here. There’s something missing. And then it says, and I, Nephi, do not make a full account of the things which my Father hath written. For he hath written many things which he saw in visions and in dreams. But I’m not going to write them down.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: Lehi already wrote him down.
[00:27:49] Speaker A: So here we haven’t even left one chapter. And we are left with much for his first vision and death and destruction. Yet somehow he rejoiced and praised the mercy of God for being so merciful and wonderful. And I am sure it wasn’t a sarcastic praising.
And then he says, and he wrote many things, but I am not going to tell you what they were.
But it does give us a clue later on if we’re kind of out in the dark a little bit. He does say he saw the coming of the Messiah and the redemption of the world. And this idea that there was more there, right? And even the story of the translation of the Book of Mormon, we had the lost 116 pages. We had two thirds of the book that was sealed. There’s just so much more. And was it being held back for three Nephi 26 Mormon tells us, I was about to write all of the things, but the Lord forbade it, saying, I will try the faith of my people. The whole point here is the Scriptures are not the end. All be all that you go and receive all of your answers for. It’s more like the conversation starter, the priming of the pump. The Lord’s commanding us that we teach out of. It says right here in the section, the doctrine, or, excuse me, the Book of Mormon and the Bible, to turn to them and then rely on the Spirit. And the Spirit will teach you until the fullness of my Scripture is given. And this idea that the greater things are revealed to us by the Spirit, and that there is greater things that we can receive through that inspiration.
[00:29:20] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:29:21] Speaker A: All right?
And the law starts to come out here right after this first little section about teaching the Gospel.
And I think there is an important distinction when he talks about thou shalt not kill, because he says, I speak unto the Church, not the world. So he’s addressing the Church and he says, thou shalt not kill. And if you do, there is no forgiveness in this life, nor in the life to come. Kind of a scary thought. If you kill someone, game over, no forgiveness. Not here, not later.
And if that’s not enough, this is the only commandment that he repeats twice in a row. And again I say unto you, thou shalt not kill, for he that killeth will die. And then he says it, just in case we missed it, at the very end of 42, he comes back one more time, so a third time, and again, thou shalt not kill.
To me, it’s a little bit weird.
Or odd to me that in the Lord’s law he would define this so broadly.
Why does he say thou shalt not kill instead of saying thou shalt not murder?
Because thou shalt not kill. If you look at it well, what if there is a mosquito that is biting me, right? And you slap the mosquito, then you just killed, right? Thou shalt not kill. But what about the mosquito? Or what about cases where you are hungry, the Lord just commanded you to sacrifice a sheep and you just killed a sheep. Did you break the commandment?
In legal terms, a lot of times murder is defined a little bit more.
How do you say it? It’s not just, you know, you’ve got this concept of manslaughter. You’ve got this concept of murder where intent plays into it. And what was going on, where if it was an accident, you didn’t necessarily murder somebody because there was no intent.
So why is the Lord painting with such broad strokes on here, this idea that if you murder, you’re done, there’s no forgiveness for you? Well, what if you swatted a fly with the fly swatter? Does that mean no one is forgiven from God?
Why would he not clarify? Why would he keep it as broad as he did?
That’s one that I’ve.
I’ve thought about, and it seems like, I don’t know.
I look at this and he says, come together to understand the word of the Lord in the last section. And he had to go through that exercise of talking through these things together to first make sure you understand the word of the Lord before he gave them this law. And maybe that was a good, healthy exercise for them to be able to take and look at it before they dive into this law and understand this. Why is the Lord not just telling them, hey, by the way, it is okay to kill if you are trying to feed your family. It is okay to kill if you are going to war. It is okay to kill if somebody is attacking you and it is nighttime or whatever the case may be. In these cases it is okay, but in these cases it is not. The Lord is, I think, specifically leaving things a little bit broad and a little bit questionable because it gives us some room to try to interpret or understand and come together to talk about the word of the Lord and understand the word of the Lord.
And from a legal aspect, you see how easy people make loopholes today, right? If you say, well, in this case, don’t do this, except for in this case or in this case, it’s all right. In this case, it’s not okay, well, if we looked at it and you could start justifying murder and saying, well, the reason I did it was because this or because of that. If the Lord’s giving us an out, then maybe we look at it and it’s easy to say, no, we’ve got an out. Whereas if he gives us no out and just paints us super broad where anything you do is killing, you could be convicted for any of it. But yet he has the mercy card that he can let people off, then it’s a lot harder for people to justify their way out of the law of God. I don’t know. It’s a question. I’ve wondered why. Why does he not define that?
In our legal system, we have the rule, but then we have a lot of case law that tells us how to interpret the law. So you will cite court cases based on this court case. This is what happened. Maybe that is what is going on here. The Lord is going to give us a rule, generally speaking, but then he is going to give us specific cases in the word of the Lord. And maybe that is why the word comes first. You can go back to the word to help you understand the law as you reference some of these cases, to help you see how the Lord’s interpreted it.
[00:34:12] Speaker B: Yeah, like Nephi killing, Laban. Yeah, that’s a good case. That’s a good case law study. And killing.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: Yeah, he killed. So does that mean no forgiveness for him or for the lives to come? Or like you say in the case law, this was something the Lord authorized.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: I mean, we also have the entire Old Testament and the children of Israel, you know, basically ran around as an army, killing everybody.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: Lots of killing was happening around then.
Just saying the Lord sending a flood and killing the entire population of the earth.
[00:34:41] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:34:42] Speaker A: Save eight people, for whatever it’s worth. And the very first thing the Lord commands them to do after they leave the garden is to make a sacrifice.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
Luckily we have the word, which gives us a lot of good case studies on the times that it makes sense that you have to take somebody else’s life.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And maybe my favorite case study on this is the Old Testament. They give them the law of the refuge. Cities. The cities of refuge. And this is kind of crazy to me. If you kill somebody on accident.
So say you’re out working. I think they even give this specific example. You’re out working with somebody and the axe head flies off of the handle and hits the guy in the head next to you and kills him. Not that you meant to. It was an accident. Then you run for what you’re worth to this city of refuge, and then you’re safe. It’s almost like a game of baseball. You get to home and you’re safe.
But they call them redeemers of blood.
They are the next of kin to the guy that died. Their job is to redeem the blood that was spilt by killing you. So it is this game of chase. Right?
[00:36:04] Speaker B: This sounds terrifying.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: It does sound a little terrifying. If you kill somebody on accident, then you can flee to a city of refuge, but if you leave the city of refuge, then the redeemer of blood can kill you.
And so.
[00:36:23] Speaker B: It’S also kind of amazing at the same time for whatever. It’s like, as I’m trying to process all this, I’m like, this is terrifying and kind of rad.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: It is. And to me, it gives you a little bit of customability, if that’s the right way to look at it.
What if the next of kin was out there chopping the wood with you and they know it was an accident? Do you think they’re going to be chasing you for everything that you’re worth and trying to kill you and pursue that for everything? They have a legal right to. But if they understand the case and they understand that it was an accident, they’re probably going to be fairly generous in letting you go. It puts the law almost more in the hands of the individuals in the situation to determine what the consequence should be.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: Here’s a question.
[00:37:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:12] Speaker B: Okay. Say I’m the dude that accidentally killed somebody.
[00:37:15] Speaker A: All right?
[00:37:16] Speaker B: Say next of kin is chasing me. I make it to the city of Refuge. They’re waiting outside the city of Refuge. I go outside the city of Refuge as they’re trying to kill me, can I defend myself and kill that person?
[00:37:29] Speaker A: No. They have a legal right to kill you.
[00:37:31] Speaker B: No, but can I legally kill them back because they’re trying to kill me for an accident that I did?
[00:37:35] Speaker A: No. No, they can’t kill you. Okay.
[00:37:37] Speaker B: See, now the game’s not cool anymore because the thing is, like, it’s not a fair fight at that point.
[00:37:41] Speaker A: No, but you. If you’ve killed, your life is surrendered.
[00:37:46] Speaker B: Right, Sorry, sorry. Hebrew law. This got uncool quick, man.
[00:37:51] Speaker A: Well, let’s see if we can make it cool.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: All right, let’s try to make it cool.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: You have to stay there until you die or.
[00:37:57] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:37:58] Speaker A: Or the high priest dies. If the high priest dies, you’re able to go home.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: That’s in the city or that’s just anywhere like that.
[00:38:07] Speaker A: The high priest of Israel. Huh.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: So if he dies, everybody’s let off the hook again. That was in the city of refuge.
[00:38:12] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:38:12] Speaker B: Okay. Who decides where the city of refuge is?
[00:38:15] Speaker A: They established certain cities that were cities of refuge. There’s a list of them in the Old Testament. So this is a city of refuge. This is a city of refuge, like.
[00:38:22] Speaker B: Australia, where the British just used to send all the criminals over there.
[00:38:26] Speaker A: Kind of like that. Right.
But the cool thing is, who does the high priest represent?
And the high priest had to be a perfect priest without blemish. This. This was representation of the Savior that. Yeah. You did something even though you did not intend to. You killed somebody on accident. Right. But the Lord, when he dies, those mistakes are washed away and you are able to return back free. And you cannot be punished for what happened, even though it was a mistake.
It is kind of an interesting deal.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: Can you go to the city of Refuge if you killed somebody on purpose?
[00:39:05] Speaker A: No.
[00:39:07] Speaker B: Okay, that is good, because that one was going to bum me out.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you could claim that it was an accident or whatnot, but then, I mean, it would have to go to the elders of Israel, right, to decide the case. And if you are guilty of intentionally killing somebody, there is no refuge for you.
This is more of an accidental thing that sort of happened. And I think because it is so broadly interpreted, it gives leeway for their flexibility for the people in this specific case. Right. If their next of kin, their redeemer of blood, is responsible for killing you, but they know it was an accident, then in good consciousness, are they really going to be.
I don’t know. It allows for some flexibility there.
Going to modern case law, if you will. There’s a couple examples in Doctrine Covenants 132 that does modify this law a little bit. And I do think it’s interesting.
It says in verse 19 that you shall come forth in the first resurrection, if not in the first resurrection and the next resurrection, and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities and powers, dominions, all heights and depths, then it shall be written in the Lamb’s book of life that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood. So if you shed innocent blood and you commit murder, then all of a sudden you lose those blessings. As long as you don’t do that, it’s telling you that this is your blessings. As long as you don’t do that. Then in the elaborate again in 27, the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, the unpardonable sin, so it says the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world, nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein you shed innocent blood and ascent unto my death after you’ve received my covenant. So again, the Lord’s talking here, not to the world, but specifically to the church and going through this case law that we have here. He’s saying those who have received their covenants, and that is talking about shedding innocent blood, and it’s talking about murder. So in this case, it is modifying this a little bit more to a range that makes a little bit more sense.
But with the letter of the law, I mean, God is laying out all sorts of letter of law that we could interpret very broadly, that we could look at it and say, well, technically, you stepped on that spider. You’re never going to be forgiven. But I don’t.
[00:41:29] Speaker B: It just would be too bad for me because I just love massacring spiders. I hate them.
What do you think, Jason? Am I done? Am I a goner?
[00:41:41] Speaker A: I’m going to say this.
I think it’s very broad because I think it gives us the flexibility to look at that and come to an understanding. When the Lord is saying to those of my church, he’s going to hold us to a different standard than those who are not necessarily in the church or those who haven’t heard the word. And how we understand that law. That law might mean something very different to one person, as it will to somebody else, and if we live it according to how we understand it.
But there’s something that the Lord does in the Old Testament when he talks about the seven deadly sins. He says these six things I hate. And yea, seven of them I abhor. And you’re like, wait a thick. I thought it was six. We getting bigger here. And it goes from six to seven, and hate to abhor. And he’s just using it to build up and say, this is a really big deal. And it’s cool how he does this, the way he uses language to get to a point. And the fact that he would emphasize this three times, and he doesn’t emphasize anything else three times. And the fact that he would say, there’s no forgiveness in this life, nor in the life to come, but then he’s going to mention everything else. And if you repent, I’ll forgive you, and if you repent, I forgive you. But in murder, to me, the whole point of this is life is something that is extremely important to him and we should value that. And I don’t know a Lot of cultures and civilizations, I think, in the past and at different times have really valued or been appreciative of the life that was sacrificed. Sacrifice to feed them. We don’t necessarily come face to face with killing animals or harvesting food. We just buy it from the store and eat it for what it is worth. And our blessings. We usually say the same blessing over and over again, and half the time, kids even forget to bless the food. But this idea of, please bless this food that will nourish and strengthen our body, maybe we should be appreciative of the fact that it doesn’t matter if it was an animal or if it was wheat. We took, in the case of wheat. Right. It’s the grain. It’s baby wheat. We took that potential for life and we robbed it so that we could nourish and sustain our own life. Life comes from life, and we could not be alive if we weren’t eating from the life of something else. And to God, life is something that is very important, and it shouldn’t be shed without good cause. We should be very appreciative and grateful and maybe a little bit less excessive in how we’re taking it.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: Well, it would make sense. That would tie really well into the word of wisdom where it says, don’t just eat meat all the time and whatever. And maybe the higher law or the spiritual law behind that is make sure that you appreciate life like you just got done saying.
[00:44:36] Speaker A: Yeah, and sorry it took me so long to get to that point, but.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Good, let’s keep going.
[00:44:42] Speaker A: Life is important.
[00:44:44] Speaker B: It’s precious, very precious. And it makes sense, too, because again, it’s just like, it’s the one thing that you. It’s the one thing that you could do to take away somebody else’s agency. Right? Because again, like, you can. You can tell people what to do, you can, whatever. But at the end of the day, it’s like you really can’t be. You know, nobody can make you sin. Right.
[00:45:05] Speaker A: Mm.
[00:45:06] Speaker B: Nobody can make you, I don’t know, be good either. But it’s like if you, without that person’s permission, take away their opportunities to, you know, to make decisions and to exercise their agency, you’ve. You’ve robbed them of the one thing that actually is truly theirs.
[00:45:24] Speaker A: And the second gravest thing, which is what’s going to follow right after this. Right. Well, or soon after this, is the idea of adultery, which is also playing with life in the sense that you are creating life or bringing life into the world that you weren’t responsible to take care of or prepare for. I don’t know. Life is something that is very precious from the Lord, whether we are taking it away or whether we are bringing it into this world. And it is a divine power. God is the one that giveth. God’s the one that takes away. And he lends that power to us to be able to bring life in here. And when we abuse that and play God in the sense that we’re snuffing out life, we’re creating life, those are the two things that he’s really serious about.
And that’s the thing. Everything else. He says, if you repent, I’ll forgive you. When it gets to adultery, it gets a little bit questionable on this because he says, if you repent, I will forgive you, but if you do it a second time, then I won’t forgive you in this world or in the world to come. And then you’re like, whoa.
I’m pretty sure that’s not the stance the church takes today. If you repent, they’ll forgive you to bring you back into the church. But perhaps the Lord is giving us kind of a warning like, yeah, once is bad, but if you make this a habit, you’re not going to find repentance because you’re not going to find your way out of that hole. It’s so addicting or it’s so hard to pull away from. You are going to be casting yourself off here because you are not going to want to turn away from that. Be careful.
Don’t let this happen more than once, if it even happens at all.
And maybe one last thought on taking life away or the sense of killing.
There is more than one way, I think, in how we can kill a life. And you have seen it. And maybe even coupling this a little bit with this idea of adultery and stealing someone’s life in the sense that if a kid gets abused and their whole prospect on life changes, you’ve robbed them of living a natural, normal life. Right?
[00:47:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that absolutely is part of it.
[00:47:44] Speaker A: Be careful. Don’t they hate me?
[00:47:48] Speaker B: The thing is, we’re gonna make. We’re just. Dude, as parents, you’re gonna make mistakes and you’re gonna blow it. And you know what I mean? It’s like, dude, we do dumb things as kids and stuff like that, too. But I think especially.
Especially if you’re aware of what it is that you’re doing. You know what I mean? It’s like you’re. If you’re aware of what. Of what you’re doing. And you know that that’s wrong. I absolutely think that.
Whatever, man. I don’t know. I.
[00:48:12] Speaker A: That.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: That, in my opinion, is worse sometimes than just ending somebody’s life, I guess.
[00:48:17] Speaker A: But there are worse things than dying and changing someone’s life like that or taking away their chance at what they could have had.
[00:48:28] Speaker B: I’m with you. What’s next?
[00:48:32] Speaker A: And maybe that’s why the Lord said it the way he did, rather than putting all of these. Clarify these loopholes or these exceptions, drive home the point of how serious this is.
Do not. You will not get. Yeah, okay.
Next he goes into the law of consecration. And there is a lot here about supporting the poor and providing for your needs, but also making sure that you are taking care of others. And they say something that is kind of interesting here where they say, be humble. Don’t dress in costly apparel or fine clothes, super fine apparel, when you’re supposed to be taking care of others. And specifically it says, make your clothing out of your own hands and don’t be buying all these other clothes. I think times have changed a little bit from this point.
[00:49:29] Speaker B: I’m going to hell.
[00:49:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I don’t think I’ve.
I don’t think I’ve ever. I don’t know how to make.
[00:49:37] Speaker B: I’m just saying, dude, I don’t know how to make my bed, let alone my sweet jeans.
[00:49:43] Speaker A: Well. And in the age of specialization that we live in now, it’s actually much cheaper to go to the store and buy your clothes than the time it would take you to make your clothes. If you’re making your clothes versus an hour of work where you’re making more money. Right. You think about the. I don’t know. The cost of goods has dropped significantly in the time. So what is this telling us?
This is a message that we see throughout the Book of Mormon, too. This idea of costly apparel. You were talking about this. Yeah.
[00:50:16] Speaker B: The startling things or the jingling things or whatever.
Didn’t it talk about it being on their shoes or something?
[00:50:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the reference you’re talking about is the Daughters of Zion. And they had.
Yeah. Also.
[00:50:31] Speaker B: So that everybody could hear them, too. Like. Like, the point of it was. The point of it was. And again, I. You know, again, it’s. I think. I think the idea was. I think the idea was like. I think. I think the point that he was teaching us was, hey, you don’t need to be doing things so flashy that, like, everybody can see you coming along. You know what I mean? Or. And again, like, I’m sorry if I’m totally butchering this, dad, by the way, if you’re listening to this, like, I’m sorry if I got the wrong message out of this, but I do remember, I do remember him explaining like the, the, the, the, the point of this was they’re wearing these things that made a lot of noise so that everybody could hear them coming along so that they would like look to see who was. You know what I mean? Like it was a pride thing, right?
More than, more than it was about the earrings jingling or whatever it was, you know, I think, I think, and again, I apologize, Father, if I’m butchering this, but assuming you’re even listening to this.
But, but I think that that still makes sense too, with, with what this is saying, which is, which is why are you, why check yourself basically, right? Like, why are you wearing what you’re wearing? Is it something where you have this pride and this need of attention? And it’s a very much like a look at me thing, which I’m also not going to judge that because like, I try to look cool, but I just wear a black T shirt and a sweater and black jeans every day. So I probably am not the one that should be speaking on the height of modern fashion, as Anthony Burgess would say, but you know what I mean? Am I missing the point of this or are we all going to hell because we don’t make our own clothes?
[00:52:13] Speaker A: I think you’re spot on.
Times have changed. I don’t think we literally have to make our own clothes under God’s law, as it was said, as we’re talking about this being interpreted broadly. And the last time I read that scripture you’re talking about, it comes from Isaiah in second Nephi. It talks about it, it quotes that. What I found fascinating about that scripture, I’m kind of glad you brought this up, is the very first verses before you get into what the daughters of Zion and what they’re wearing and whatnot, talks about the false prophets, the false priests, the leaders of the people that are pretending to lead, the people that aren’t, and how they’re going to be cut off. I will cut off the prophets from the land. I will cut off the priests from the land. I’ll cut off the elders from the land. And so they’re talking about all of these fine adornments and they’re talking about Zion being adorned. And what is she wearing? These verses, it talks about when the Lord will bring Zion back from her glory. So it talks about, first she’s going to sit naked in shame because all of these things are going to be cut off from her. And I look at these adornments and the false prophet or the false whatever, these idols that we put up and the people that we worship that we think have a lot of value because they tend to represent what we think is the ideal or what we think is the best. But the Lord cuts them off from Israel and then he clothes Israel and he talks about adorning her and these beautiful clothing.
So it is okay to have beautiful clothing. The Lord is going to clothe Zion in beautiful clothing. But some of these things, I think, represent putting our focus in the wrong place and valuing things more than what they are really worth. When we are spending a lot of money on this and not willing to take care of the poor person that is next to us or needs just a little bit to get by, what are we putting our values and where are we putting them? And I thought it was kind of neat, the Scriptures would put that right next to all of these people that you thought were important are going to get cut off. And then they talk about the woman that wears that, and all of these things are going to be cut off. She is going to be sitting naked and ashamed. But then the Lord is going to take Zion and clothe her in a.
[00:54:27] Speaker B: More beautiful garment, which would probably just be white, right?
[00:54:32] Speaker A: I don’t know.
[00:54:34] Speaker B: There’s the twist at the end.
[00:54:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. And I look at this going back to the same sense of this idea of killing being very broadly, you can interpret this so many different ways. And I think as we discuss the word of the Lord as we look at it and feel comfortable, how we understand it, if we are living it to our understanding, that’s what the Lord asks for us. And maybe that’s why it’s so broad, is because we do have different ways of understanding it. So, yeah, I agree. I don’t think we have to make our own clothing going real quick to mourning for those that die, more especially those that die who have no hope of a good resurrection.
[00:55:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it is sad.
[00:55:17] Speaker A: It is sad, but it shows the love of God. And if there was one person that got this, it was Enoch. The Lord tells him to go preach to the people. And he says, why have you found favor in me? I am but a lad and the people hate me. And he says, no, just open your mouth and I will fill it. And it gets to the point where he opens his mouth and lions roar and mountains stand far off and the people are terrified. And you’re like, wow, that’s powerful. And he’s this mighty soldier that just goes through conquering and slaying and establishing this whole land and becomes very prideful.
And as the Lord catches him up and he looks at the residue that’s going to be destroyed in the flood, he sees the heavens weep, and he says, what? These are the people that hated me, that fought against me. These are the people that you told me to go and try to preach to, and I had to fight against them. They were my enemies. This is the residue. This is the wickedness. And he calls them residue. And he says, how can the heavens weep over the residue? And then God changes his perception and says, these people are your brothers and sisters. These are my children. And when Enoch gets it, not only does he get it that these are people and these are God’s children, but that they don’t have hope for a good resurrection, then he really gets it. And then all of a sudden, he is mourning and he refuses to be comforted. And we talk about mourning for deaths. I mean, they used to have professional mourners that you’d pay in and all this wailing and whatever. But there’s something more to it. This.
It’s not just about crying for someone that died.
It’s even feeling that love, that endearing, loving your enemies. It’s easy to love people that are good, but what about the people that have no hope?
Don’t celebrate over their death. Don’t say, he had it coming. What an idiot. Just love them.
[00:57:12] Speaker B: It can be hard to do. I mean, I celebrated when Osama bin Laden got his. I mean, but. You know what I mean? But it’s like that this changes your perspective. And it’s not like. It’s not like there weren’t a lot of people going like, hey, look, like, we don’t need to celebrate this. And I’m like, yeah, I am. I’ll dance on that grave, you know? And it’s. It’s. It’s hard to not feel those feelings sometimes. It’s just a very human thing to do. You know what I mean? But I think that this. It’s important to see the higher law in this, which is, hey, this isn’t a time for you to celebrate. You know, like, you should be. You should be.
It should give you perspective, if nothing else.
[00:57:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And again, going back to the first message, this is death. This is talking about life, something that God treasures so much.
And it is interesting to see him tweak on that. My favorite verse. Let me sort of Wrap this up here as we are getting to the end of 42. It says, if thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things, that which bring joy and that which bring life eternal. That is an amazing promise. And it was really cool to see somebody we were teaching in Mexico who was praying to know if the church was true, and they wanted to get baptized, but they hadn’t received an answer to their prayer, and they couldn’t feel comfortable.
They wanted to join the church. They said, let’s do it. Let’s have. And it was the baptismal interview. Said, do you have a testimony? Have you received an answer? And they said, no. Then as we went through the Ten Commandments, there was one that she wasn’t living. There was one she didn’t feel comfortable following. And so we had a discussion and asked her about that. And when she said, you know what?
That’s right. I need to change this. I’m going to pray about this right now. And then all of a sudden, that revelation that she had been waiting for right in front of our eyes was just poured out upon her as soon as she was in line with keeping those commandments. And this is the law of God, section 42. God just laid out his whole law and promises at the end. If you ask, you shall receive revelation upon revelation. So if you want to receive those revelations and you feel like there’s something that’s blocking or hindering it, maybe go through and look at that law, maybe look at some of these things that are interpreted so broadly and say, how do I interpret this? And should I be interpreting this differently so that I can have. What’s that great blessing that he promises? Contentment, happiness, and knowing that I’m where I should be. And as that happens, it opens up that conduit, and we’re blessed. Love it.
[00:59:44] Speaker B: What are we talking about next week?
[00:59:45] Speaker A: Next week is doctrine, covenant, section 45, and preface with the promises. The promise shall be fulfilled. Cool.
[00:59:53] Speaker B: All right. Until next week.
[00:59:55] Speaker A: See ya.
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