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What if Laban and Lehi were brothers?

Weekly Deep Dive
Weekly Deep Dive
What if Laban and Lehi were brothers?

What if Lehi’s family’s Exodus occured during Passover? What if Lehi and Laban were brothers? symbolism in the scriptures. God’s unique signature, or sealing of his testimony as an artist in history.


[00:00:15] Speaker A: Surprise. Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the Add on Education network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio in the middle of the week with our friend and this show’s producer, Nate Pyfer.

[00:00:32] Speaker B: Yeah, baby.

[00:00:33] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:00:34] Speaker B: Surprise, surprise, surprise.

[00:00:36] Speaker A: Bonus episode for you guys out there in listening land.

[00:00:41] Speaker B: Listening land.

[00:00:42] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:00:42] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:00:43] Speaker A: Haven’t dropped that one yet.

[00:00:44] Speaker B: I mean, that is a new one. I was trying to process it still, actually.

[00:00:49] Speaker A: Well, welcome all you out there in listening land.

It’s getting worse.

So to give you a little bit of context to try to erase what I recently said and replace it with some value, this week I was reading an article on LDS Living by Don Bradley. If you haven’t read anything from Don Bradley, really love the guy. He’s done a lot of research into early church history documents, and he’s found interviews with Joseph Smith senior that are fairly credible. He wrote a book called what’s in the lost 116 pages, and this article on LDS living talked about what we learned from the lost 116 pages. And really, it’s what we’ve learned from the snippets, the snapshots, the things that he’s been able to pull out of history that kind of give us an inside look at what was lost there. And in this article, he highlighted a few things, one of which was Joseph Smith struggled pronouncing the name Saria. And we get that from Emma in her notes, talking about Joseph Smith and translating with him as she was scribing for him, translating, I should say. And also, Joseph Smith had no idea that there were walls surrounding the city of Jerusalem.

And so putting these pieces together, it would sound like Emma’s translating the first part of Nephi. That’s where we see Saria. That’s where we see the walls of Jerusalem. But we know from the original manuscripts of the Book of Mormon, it wasn’t Emma. I believe it was Oliver Cowdry who was scribing for that portion of the Book of Mormon. So she must have been scribing for what I assume is the book of Lehigh, which is what’s contained in the last 116 pages, along with some other things in this as well. Don Bradley points out that Lehigh leaves Jerusalem during a jewish feast, a jewish holiday, and he even goes as far to suggest that this holiday was Passover. And as I was reading this article and started to think and reflect on this, all sorts of things started opening up in front of me. How do they say it? Like the scales on the eyes just dropped off. I just started to see all sorts of cool things, and I reached out to Nate, and my phone was Nate’s phone, I should say, was probably blowing up with all sorts of texts from me just talking about all the different things that I was seeing. And as we started discussing this and going back and forth and all the cool connections that we were making, the inside inspiration, revelation, whatever you want to call it, we decided we had to get this in a bonus episode. So here we sit, and I want to open this, really, I think I want to frame this discussion. This one will probably be a little bit of a shorter episode, as it’s a bonus with two questions.

And the first question that I want to pose to you, listening to this podcast, is, what if Lehi left Jerusalem during Passover? What’s the significance? What do we learn?

What if. So what?

And two, what if Lehi and Laban were brothers?

So to kick us off, Lehi leaving in Passover, where this kind of ties in and makes sense, is that Laban is out with the elders of the Jews celebrating, which would make sense if it’s happening during a feast, he’s drinking too much, which, again, if you’re out having a feast and enjoying celebrating, you could understand his actions a little bit better in that context.

But it goes a little bit further than that. When you look at the message that Lehi is bringing to the people talking about the coming of the messiah and the redemption of the world.

These are also themes that fit with Passover. And to take that one step further, the story of Lehi leaving Jerusalem to save his life and his family’s life matches the story of Passover. This is passover in repeat, and I’m going to set that there, and we’ll circle around and come back to that and hopefully try to marry some of the symbolism and what this means and tie it all together in the end. But I really want to spend some time on the second question. What if Lehi and Laban were brothers? And where does that even come from? It’s certainly not anything that Don Bradley was talking about, but it’s something that crossed my mind. And we read, when the brass plates are brought back to the tent of Lehi and he’s reading the records, it says that the genealogy, in fact, I should probably just read this so I don’t say it wrong. They talk about the genealogy of Laban, and it says that it’s the same as Lehi’s.

This is chapter five, verse 14. And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his father’s, wherefore that he knew he was a descendant of Joseph, even that Joseph, who was the son of Jacob, who was sold into Egypt. So, just to get this clear, he found the genealogy of his fathers.

Who else would have an identical genealogy of Lehi’s fathers if they weren’t brothers?

The further away you get from brothers, the further away that genealogy is going to be. And you can certainly patch it together, or you can try to. It would be close, but it wouldn’t be identical. And in here, Lehi is saying that the genealogy of Lehi’s fathers is contained in the brass plates, which would make more sense if Lehi and Laban shared the same father.

Some other points to note here.

When Lehi goes, excuse me, not Lehi, when Nephi goes to get the plates, and let’s say not just Nephi, but Nephi and his brothers. So, first off, Layman is going to sit down with Laban and have a talk and try to talk his way into getting the plates.

Layman to be able to have an audience with Laban, who we’ve discussed as a ruler. And, in fact, in archaeology, they’ve found seals from the tsar at Jerusalem, the prince, the leader, the ruler, who’s different from the king of Judah.

And this tsar, this governor, this person of power, he would be in command of the garrison, he would be in command of troops, he would be a ruler in the city, not necessarily the kingdom, but the city, which matches the description of what we see about Laban. He’s a man of power. He’s a man that can seal. I’ll even add a little bit of detail here. The seal they said they found in a house that faces the temple, and it’s a house that’s very lavishly decorated with storerooms to store riches, which is associated with wealthy people that would come in, that would visit. It was a place of influence, a place of power.

And now, when Nephi is saying that he’s born of goodly parents, the use of the word goodly is not to say that they were righteous, but is often more found with status. It’s not even to say that they’re necessarily wealthy, but they are socially well known. They have status. They’ve achieved something. We do know that his father is wealthy from all of his provisions, that he can leave at a whim and still have all of the things he needs to take his family in the tents that he leaves behind his gold and his silver and his precious things, that he has a house and a land of inheritance. This man is a man of status, goodly parents.

It’s similar to what we would expect, the description of somebody who’s here, the tsar, who’s ruling over the city, when Layman goes to talk to him. If this is the ruler of the city and this is happening during the feast, during a festival, how is it that Layman can get audience with Laban, last minute, spur of the moment, without having an appointment, how is it that he’s able to even come into this guy’s house, sit down and have a conversation with him?

If Layman’s just anyone in the city, just whatever peasant, if you want to call it that, any average Joe, he’s not going to have that pole, that power, to be able to sit down and meet with this man, if he’s his nephew, that makes a lot more sense to how he can have a last minute meeting during the holiday season, if you will, with the ruler of the city.

Also, Laban’s reaction makes a lot more sense in this case.

If Layman is asking for the plates which has been handed down through his fathers, to which son gets it, the firstborn son, the son that’s going to rule after him, this is a status of his kingship, his rulership, his governance, his governorship governance, his governance. I like that. We’ll go with governance.

So when all of a sudden, Lehi is trying to get this, if Lehi and Laban are brothers, Laban could easily perceive this as a play for the throne. And I want to remind you of the story of Solomon, when Solomon becomes king in Israel.

Remember, he has another brother who’s too afraid to go and talk to Solomon himself. So he sends somebody as an intermediary to go and have this conversation. And this intermediary goes to Solomon and says, hey, your brother, he does not want the throne. He acknowledges your rule, but he does want your father’s concubine.

And Solomon’s reaction to this is revealing, because what does Solomon do? Execute his brother and his brother’s household. Why? Because even if his brother’s saying this isn’t a play for the throne, it still appears like one. It’s still a transfer of power. What his father’s, his king is now passing on to a brother instead of him. It could be misconstrued even in the eyes of the people that they’re ruling, saying he is giving up power or this person is in charge, it’s a play for the throne.

If all of a sudden, Lehi, a younger brother to Laban, is coming in and asking for those plates, a sign of his power and his authority, it’s a play for the throne, enough to upset Laban to want to not just execute Lehi, but Lehi’s family, so that his children aren’t taking revenge and trying to make a play for the throne as well. It makes a lot more sense now. Also, when Nephi goes back and he runs into Laban and he slays Laban, he puts on Laban’s armor. And here’s the thing. If you didn’t know Laban very well, how do you know which servant is in charge of the records?

How do you know who he is and where to go to even find him?

Doesn’t say. Nephi is sitting there going from servant to servant to servant or trying to find. And if it’s at night and they’re not even there, they’re at their own homes. How do you know where they live, where they’re at, who they are, and who to talk to? There’s some familiarity here with this family and with the governance of the family that Nephi has.

When Nephi finds the servant of Laban, who’s very familiar with Laban, who spent a long time serving him, I imagine you’ll notice how easy it is for Nephi to impersonate Laban.

If he’s his nephew physically, he might appear like Laban, he might sound like Laban. And then also, it says that Nephi talks in Laban’s voice. How does Nephi know Laban’s voice if they’re not being raised close to each other, if they’re not family, if they’re not in that relationship? It’s not like this is a time period where the governor stands up on television and makes speeches all the time, or you hear him on the radio.

They don’t have that exposure. They don’t have that opportunity. How would Nephi be familiar enough with the voice of Laban to be able to impersonate it? Unless he knew Laban very well, unless he sat with him, unless he was with him. Unless there was a family tie relationship here. And we know there’s a family tie because they have the same genealogy. But I’m saying a very close family tie to the point that Lehi and Laban would be brothers.

[00:14:09] Speaker B: Is Layman getting chased out when he went to ask for the mean? Is that the reason he didn’t just say, no, get out of here? Because if it was just a normal person. Right? If it was just normal person saying, hey, can I come and have these plates? In theory, if it’s not related, you go, no, why would I give you those? Like, get out of here.

[00:14:29] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. I think you just think that person’s a fool. Like, why would you even ask for this?

[00:14:33] Speaker B: Because the idea of the transfer of power or the misunderstanding of power, the reason it set him off is because it’s like, because it’s family.

Look at how the oldest, youngest brother power play plays out through the entire Old Testament, all throughout scriptures, basically, in general. Right? Like so many of the stories, is the last becoming the first and the first becoming the last?

[00:14:58] Speaker A: Basically, yes. We’ll see this with Jacob and Esau, you see it with Cain and Abel. You see it all over the place. Right?

[00:15:04] Speaker B: And we talked about that even a little bit, too, though, right? Is that the Jacob and Esau parallels even in Nephi dressing up in the armor. Right? A little bit of, like, the disguise thing. Do you want to talk about that a little?

[00:15:16] Speaker A: Yeah. So going Nephi, impersonating him to physically resemble him, to physically or sound like him, suggests this close tie. Right. And let me get to the symbolism of Nephi taking on his armor and dressing up here in a second. Sorry. I’m going to circle back.

[00:15:39] Speaker B: I don’t want to jump you too far ahead.

[00:15:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of significance in that, and I want to circle back and spend a little bit of time on that. Okay.

Going back to Zorum, who would have been familiar with Laban, how is he so easily deceived by this person?

Unless it’s close enough, right? It’s got to be close enough. But then, on the flip side of this, when Laban realizes that. Excuse me, when Zorum realizes that it’s not Laban, if this was just some random stranger that he didn’t know, why in the world would Zoram go with them down into the wilderness? If Laban, his master’s dead, who gets the power next? And if it’s Lehi and his family, if Lehi’s this younger brother and this all falls to him now, the servant’s loyalties, does it not lie with Lehi and his family?

And if he knew the character of Nephi because he grew up close with this family, perhaps he was even the servant for.

Or his dad was the servant for Lehi’s dad. Right? Maybe there’s a very close tracking with these families. He knows Nephi enough to be comfortable to trust him when he swears on his life, that he’ll be safe. And to feel comfortable enough that this is his responsibility to go with this family makes a lot more sense in that family setting.

All right.

[00:17:01] Speaker B: Even the fact I just throw this in there, the smallest of detail, even the fact that Lehi knew who had the plates, is kind of telling, too, right? If you have a city just full of a gazillion people, how do you know who has the plates of your family’s genealogy? And like you said, why would some random stranger that’s not related to you in some way? I’m not even saying, like, a direct brother to brother, but it’s like there’s clearly some sort of familiar relationship somewhere along the line. If in the city with so many people, Lehigh even knows where or who to ask about getting or where the.

[00:17:38] Speaker A: Records are even kept. Right. The idea that the records are not kept where Zorum lives, and Nephi knows that and goes to find Zorum, which is separate from the plates. Yeah. To just back up exactly what you’re saying.

[00:17:50] Speaker B: Sorry, I just wanted to throw that in there.

[00:17:51] Speaker A: No, I’m glad you did.

[00:17:52] Speaker B: Keep going.

[00:17:53] Speaker A: Is there anything else, as far as evidence wise, that would suggest that this might be the case before we start diving into the symbolism of it and why it would be significant?

[00:18:04] Speaker B: I mean, I know that this is the farthest of stretches, but I did laugh a little bit at the idea that if we’re going to assume that Lehi is the younger brother of Laban and basically goes and becomes the greater of the two, I just thought that it was funny that the name Laban is only, like, the one letter difference to Layman.

[00:18:27] Speaker A: Kids are always confusing. The two adults are always confusing.

[00:18:30] Speaker B: The only reason I brought up is because my kids, when we were doing scripture study, my five year old was just like, okay, wait a minute, now. Which one are we talking about again? But I was just like, even if it was just like, oh, yeah, maybe he was named after his uncle. But I just found the irony in Lehi usurping his older brother and Nephi, then usurping his older brother. Lehman. Not Lehman. But anyways, even the names I was just going to say, maybe that is even just a subtle hint or detail in there, too, but also, that might just be reading way too much into it.

[00:19:01] Speaker A: I like it. And one more I was just thinking of mean, I’ve talked about. Nephi calls this book his reign in ministry.

And twice before he even gets to the point where he slays Laban, God has told him personally that he’s going to be king. And he’s told his brothers after he was getting beat with the rod, that he was going to be the king, and this is going to be the fulfillment of this. But if this is a distant relative going and slaying somebody, it doesn’t explain that transfer of power. Very clear. I mean, he’s stealing it, right? He’s taking the plates, he’s taking the sword. He’s taking the servant, he’s taking the armor. Everything that establishes it. But it ties it much closer. If this family is next of kin, to the point that it would fall to them anyways, I think that helps validate that.

[00:19:47] Speaker B: Let’s keep going.

[00:19:49] Speaker A: All right. Laying out maybe some of these similarities or the circumstantial evidence, if you will. I want to take a step back now and explain the symbolism, the what if.

[00:20:02] Speaker B: Right, sure. Like, why it would be important if.

[00:20:06] Speaker A: Yeah.

And starting with, let’s go back and go to the first question. What if it was Passover? Starting with the symbolism of Passover, and then let’s get into, like, you’re talking about putting on the clothes of Laban and some of the deeper meaning and how this all ties together.

If this is Passover, here you have Lehi’s family fleeing, and we gave him such a hard time. I did. I’m not going to say you did, because you were a lot more fair to Lehi than I was for leaving Jerusalem in such a hurry that he forgot the plates, that he forgot to get wives for his kids to really think about this long term.

But the fact that they leave in haste matches this Passover event. In Exodus, they’re told, you can’t even put leaven in your bread because it’s not going to rise. You have to eat unleavened bread. You have to sleep with your shoes on and your coat on and be ready to go in a hurry. And this is how quick it was with Lehi when he left. He left with haste.

And when he comes down there, Nephi makes a big deal about the tent, the altar, and offering sacrifices at that location. With Passover, you’re offering sacrifices at the temple. But before you were offering sacrifices at the temple, you were doing it at the tabernacle.

[00:21:35] Speaker B: Right?

[00:21:35] Speaker A: You’re doing in the wilderness. This event. This is happening here.

Nephi is making this connection. We are celebrating Passover in the wilderness.

And the interesting thing, Lehi is prophesying about the coming of the messiah and the redemption of the world, that the messiah is going to become a mortal man and die, and that through his blood, the world might be redeemed. This is the story of Passover.

Remember, Passover talks about a lamb dying on a certain day. And if you want to get into the details of this, go back and find one of our Passover episodes. We don’t have time to go over all those details now, but very quickly, the day and the hour of the death of the lamb was prophesied in Passover, and also the details that they would be hurrying. And they tell us, John tells us, we have to go and prepare the meal. We have to put the blood on the posts of the door. So we need to speed this up. And they go and they break the legs of either prisoner on either side of Christ. But his legs are not broken, just like the Passover lamb. That’s the miracle of it, the connection. When Christ is on that cross and he thirsts, they take and dip the sponge in bile and feed him bitterness. It’s the lamb served with bitter herbs.

And when they take him off the cross, his blood stained the vertical and the horizontal post, just as they marked their doors with the blood of the lamb that slain.

Lehi’s teaching them about Passover during Passover, but the real Passover, that Christ is coming to live and to die as a man. And they were upset, it says. And now when he said these things, they were angry with him, even as with the prophets of old, whom they cast out and stoned and slain. And they seek to kill Lehi for the exact same reason they seek to kill Christ, for saying that I am God, born to die. That’s blasphemous. God can’t be one of us. That separation that we keep talking about, that keeps coming up as a theme. We keep trying to put God somewhere else, but not like us when he came to bridge that gap.

So Lehi’s preaching of the coming of the messiah and these Passover themes, and he’s believing in the blood of the lamb that will save him.

Meanwhile, if they’re seeking to take away his life, who’s really seeking to take it away? Is it not the governor of the city who’s responsible for the justice in the city? It would be his own brother, Laban, who would be seeking to kill Lehi, because he does not believe in the coming of the messiah and the redemption of the world.

If you do not believe in the coming of the messiah, the redemption of the world, that the blood of Christ is going to save you, that is aiken to not putting the blood on the posts of your door on Passover and if he’s the firstborn son, which seems likely, given that he is the ruler, he’s the one in charge of the plates, and he doesn’t have blood over that door, then what happens on Passover?

By God’s command, the firstborn is slain.

And so not only is Laban justified in dying legally, as we talked about in a previous episode, in falsely accusing Laban or layman, in stealing and robbing their possessions and being guilty of being a robber, but also on this passover event, for not believing in the blood of Christ, he has forfeit his life as the firstborn.

And the symbolism of this is what’s so powerful, because we believe that Christ, the only born, the firstborn of God, through his death, the rest of us can be saved.

And then it comes down to this. Unwillingly, unwantingly, unknowingly, the firstborn here in this family is sacrificed or dies so that the nation can be saved. Nephi’s nation, his seed, his posterity, Lehi’s family, saved through the blood of the Passover. Is there not any more powerful symbolism in this story taking place at this time period?

And the symbolism also sets up some very powerful things in the idea that Christ comes to fulfill the Passover. And we briefly went over all of the lamb being slain and the connections with him on the cross. But I want us to remember the first of the Passover is the fact that they’re fleeing in a hurry out of Egypt.

When Christ is born, his life is in danger from Herod wanting to come and kill all the young born kids.

And Joseph and Mary are warned in the night by an angel and have to flee in a hurry, just as the Israelites did from Egypt, except for here’s the interesting thing. They’re fleeing Israel to go to Egypt. It is the Passover in reverse. And when you see these events play out in reverse like this, I’m hoping you’re thinking in your mind, this is like a chiasmus. This is poetry. This is Hebrew Poetry. It’s reversing the prophecies from old, the events that happened in old in reverse order. And what’s the meaning of it? What’s the significance of it? It’s saying, here is the meaning of Passover. This is the completion of Passover. This is why you did it. We’re returning back to Egypt as a bookend to close this and saying that through Christ is the fulfillment of what you’ve been worshiping and what you’ve been doing. And he has come to be this lamb that was going to be sacrificed.

Well, Lehi’s family becomes a type of Christ.

And when we talked about my father dwelling in a tent, think about the parallels between Nephi and Christ, because who was the only one that dwelt in the tent and the tabernacle in the wilderness?

And that was the house of the Lord. Holiness to the Lord, and the holy of Holies was the throne of God.

And so, as Nephi says, and my father dwelt in a tent, does that not match what Christ is saying, that my father is he who sits on the throne of God?

God is my father.

And when Christ says, I haven’t done anything except for what the father has commanded me, and I learned everything from what the father has shown me. Now go back to what Nephi is saying when he says, and my father taught me in all of his learning, and I will go and do the things that my father has commanded me, just as Christ said I would, that I didn’t have to take of this cup, nevertheless, not my will, but thy will.

And so, as you have Lehi, kind of this image of a God, you have Nephi as this image of Christ. And maybe one more powerful connection on this.

Nephi’s brothers sought to kill him over and over again, just as when Christ came, the Jews, his family, the people that should have supported him most, are the ones that rejected him and killed him.

And in the end, what does Nephi do? He packs up and leaves, and his brothers are left on their own. And in the end, what happens when the Jews reject the gospel and God says, it’s time to turn to the Gentiles? It’s time to pull this out. It’s time to go somewhere else. And so you see, not just a lot of symbolism laden in this family, but a lot of prophecy and what they’re doing and how this works.

And there’s a little bit more now when we start talking about, what if Lehi and Laban were brothers, and this is what you were talking about, Nate and the firstborn dying so that the rest can live.

And I also want to talk about Jacob and Esau, because Jacob’s name in Hebrew means supplanter, because he takes over that firstborn. Right? But how does he get that firstborn blessing?

Jacob can only get the blessing by taking the name of Esau, saying, I am Esau, by acting like Esau, preparing the venison, exactly how Esau would have prepared it, by physically taking on his skin, if you will, because Esau was a hairy man, and he puts the skins on him to come across as hairy in physical appearance, in his actions, in his spirit, and the sense of how he would act, even in his.

[00:30:37] Speaker B: Speech, right when he’s talking to his dad, and his dad keeps asking him, like, wait, are you for sure?

I mean, even in his speech, he had to verbally deceive him as well.

[00:30:48] Speaker A: Yes.

And that’s the power of that story. And I think what we see here with this repetition of it, with Laban being the firstborn, and Nephi only being able to get the firstborn blessing because he is the one that becomes the king here in this story, is only by impersonating the firstborn. And that’s what we do now, the sacrament. We take upon us his name.

We speak in his name. Do we not say in the name of Jesus Christ and close our speech as if we were talking in his name?

And the blessing is that his spirit will be with us if we follow him, if we act like him, and we take his body and his blood and the sacrament emblems, saying, we will impersonate him, because only through him, he is the gate, the door. Only by impersonating the firstborn can we get the firstborn’s inheritance.

And so you see these powerful symbols played out not just in Jacob and Esau, but repeated here in the story of Nephi and Laban.

[00:32:01] Speaker B: It’s almost like a kid in New York would have had a pretty hard time making all this up.

I told you, you’re going to hear it from me a lot this year.

[00:32:11] Speaker A: And even if he did, then why didn’t he talk about it?

[00:32:14] Speaker B: I mean, that’s the other thing, too.

I do love. As we were kind of going back and forth over text, there was a scripture, I’m trying to remember that Nephi even basically said that the scriptures have all of the truths in them already, and it’s kind of laid out before you. And at a certain point, it’s up to us to start seeing a lot of these truths and a lot of these things as we start to look and kind of dig into it deeper. But then, as we do, it is interesting. As we’ve talked about, like, oh, man, actually, that kind of makes sense, and a lot of that fits. A lot of that actually matters. It’s not just an interesting detail. It’s like, oh, that could unlock a whole, let’s see, 32 minutes worth of a discussion about that.

[00:33:00] Speaker A: And I promised I’d keep this one short, so maybe I just wrap this up with one last thought. Unless there’s anything I’m missing Nate. You keep me honest.

[00:33:07] Speaker B: I’ve been kind of mentally checking off our prior conversations.

[00:33:12] Speaker A: I think the most special, unique, cool, the greatest thing about all of this is who could have orchestrated history like this?

Who could have set up the Passover thousands of years and saying, this is my work, this is what I’m going to do.

Go ahead and frustrate this, and yet 2000 years later, fulfill it in such detail.

And again, go back to Nephi’s family and say, here, I’m just going to show you again, just a reminder, this is my work. This is what I’m going to do. Here it is.

I’d like to say this. I think it’s relatively easy.

I say relatively because I don’t think it’s easy at all to be an artist. I don’t want to take away from any artists out there. But relatively speaking, anyone can be an artist in writing a poem in text, or writing a story, or creating art in words, if they think hard enough, if they apply themselves, that they look, anybody could do that.

And the reason why I say it’s relative is, but nobody can do that through history.

And to orchestrate the lives of so many people, thousands on a grand scale, like what God has done.

And so God says, what more could I have done between judge, between me and my people, what more could I have done? He sent prophets. And what he’s done here is he’s even left his own signature, his own voice, testifying to all these things. He tells Isaiah, come, let us reason together as a man does to another. I will tell you all of these things from the beginning, so that when you look back, lest you say, I did it on my own, you have to. But recognize that it was me, because nobody else could do this. Nobody else can orchestrate events over thousands of years and make them line up and match so well.

And in a time today when there is so much confusion and so much in doubt and trying to wonder what’s true and what should I believe, and where do I go to have all of this stand as God’s witness, saying, who else could have orchestrated this? Who else could have created this in time? He’s an artist, and his medium is history.

[00:35:46] Speaker B: We appreciate everybody listening, appreciate you giving us another 30 minutes of your week. It’s been awesome to see a lot of the sharing and new listenership that we’ve been getting in a bunch of cities that we’ve never really had anybody listening before. And it’s kind of awesome to see the word spread. And so we thank you, our listeners for that because we know that a lot of it’s just word of mouth, and we appreciate that from you guys. If you have any questions or comments or if our discussion today gave you some additional insight into even this specifically, we would love to hear back from you. You can get a hold of us at the email address of hiatweeklydeepdive.com. We appreciate you. And we’re going to be back in the studio this weekend, right?

[00:36:28] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:36:28] Speaker B: All right, cool. Until then, see you.

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