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Mosiah 1 – 3

Weekly Deep Dive
Mosiah 1 - 3

King Benjamin’s address. Charity. Meek, submissive, childlike. Willing to submit to all things. Being a sheep. The value of waiting.


[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the weekly Deep Dive podcast on the add on Education network. The podcast where we take a look at the weekly come follow me discussions and try to add a little insight and unique perspective. I am your host, Jason Lloyd, here in the studio with our friend and this show’s producer, Nate Pfeiffer.

[00:00:30] Speaker B: Yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo. Ma. Yoko. Oh, no.

Yoko ono joke there.

[00:00:42] Speaker A: How you doing this week?

[00:00:44] Speaker B: I mean, I’m making Yoko Ono jokes to start the show, so that’s how I’m doing this week.

[00:00:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I still don’t know if I can get a good read on that.

[00:00:51] Speaker B: You know, she just screams.

[00:00:56] Speaker A: Oh, boy.

I don’t even know where to go with that.

[00:01:00] Speaker B: I mean, there’s really nowhere to go with that.

She ruined the Beatles. You know, it’s the whole thing.

[00:01:07] Speaker A: Sad story.

[00:01:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Nah, it’s life. Whatever, man.

[00:01:12] Speaker A: That’s what happened.

[00:01:14] Speaker B: What’s up with you this week?

Just getting ready.

[00:01:18] Speaker A: Just getting ready, I guess.

I’ve got a little stone hanging out with me.

[00:01:25] Speaker B: You’re stoned? Hanging out? What?

What did you say? I’ve got a stone hanging out with me.

[00:01:32] Speaker A: A little stone hanging out with me.

[00:01:34] Speaker B: I don’t even know what that means.

[00:01:37] Speaker A: It’s when I ended up in the ER and found out I had a kidney stone.

[00:01:40] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that’s right. You have a new buddy.

[00:01:42] Speaker A: Yeah, he’s just kind of hanging in there.

[00:01:44] Speaker B: Wait, so wait, that whole ordeal’s not over yet?

[00:01:48] Speaker A: No.

[00:01:49] Speaker B: All right, what are we talking about this week?

[00:01:51] Speaker A: This week we get to talk about Mosiah.

I say Mosiah. It’s Mosiah one through three. But really it’s King Benjamin. And King Benjamin gets to kind of rally the people together and have a little speech. Benjamin’s speech.

Maybe now’s a good time to drop this little nugget.

[00:02:09] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:02:12] Speaker A: We’Re starting Mosiah, and honestly, we haven’t flipped very many pages into the Book of Mormon. Where are we at? 100 pages in, 150 pages in. Somewhere in there, right?

And there’s like, 500 pages. We’re physically really close to Nephi and them leaving Jerusalem. But for what it’s worth, we’re only 140 years away from when Christ is coming, where they left Jerusalem around 600 years. So we’re talking about 400 plus years since Lehi left Jerusalem.

These guys here in the book of Mormon, Benjamin, Mosiah. And we’re going to soon get into Ammon, the sons of Mosiah, and all of this interesting stuff, right? They are much closer to Christ and his appearance and where we’re going to get third Nephi later down the road than they are to Nephi and Lehi leaving Jerusalem.

[00:03:09] Speaker B: It’s wild to think of all of the wars and the destruction and all of the gnarliness that’s going to happen throughout all of Alma and Helaman and all of that. To think all of that’s happening in such a way shorter, condensed time before Jesus comes, where that seems like that would be the hundreds and hundreds of years.

So, yeah, it’s kind of mind blowing to put that in perspective.

[00:03:38] Speaker A: It makes me curious as to what happened in that 400 year black hole where we’re just getting these little one liners about what did or didn’t happen from these guys, which is also something else interesting.

When I look at israelite history, you have two prominent figures. You’ve got the king, obviously, who plays a very prominent role. But then you also have the high priest or the spiritual leader. And I’ll qualify that as spiritual leader rather than high priest, because sometimes it is the high priest, but oftentimes it’s a prophet and maybe even somebody outside of the system that’s kind of coming in as a prophet. But you have a spiritual leader and a political leader, and these two figureheads played a prominent role throughout the Old Testament. The Book of Mormon starts the same way. You have Nephi, and he’s going to consecrate his brother Jacob as the spiritual leader for his people. And he kind of splits this off into two sets of records.

The larger plates of Nephi are going to be kept by the kings, the annals of the kings, and they’re going to keep a more detailed record of the history of what’s going on, where the more sacred things he’s splitting off and giving to the priestly organization. Right. I’m going to have. And it’s very similar to Moses consecrating Aaron as a priest, and he’s going to be the high priest and his sons. Right? So Jacob is supposed to be representing this priestly line, the spiritual leadership for the people, where Nephi’s line is more of the political line for the administration of his people.

And yet you kind of coming off of last week, it’s almost like we’re seeing the failure of the priestly line because you just see this downfall or this.

The content is getting less in quantity. They’re writing less words, fewer words, but also, I think, significantly less in quality. You just don’t get inspiring stories or great things coming from it, where it just kind of feels like just as the people are waving into apostasy. It almost feels like their spiritual leadership is also kind of waning a bit. And to where, the very end, he has no one to hand it off to. He doesn’t have a son. And his brother went up with Zenith’s people to go find the land of Nephi, and so he’s at an impasse. What do I do? My line is dead. The priestly line dies. And so he takes the plates and gives them to the king, to Mosiah, and kind of just gives it back to these guys.

[00:06:15] Speaker B: Yeah, because we didn’t talk a lot last week about kind of those small books that kind of jump around because they feel kind of worthless.

Maybe not worthless. Maybe that’s a bad word to use. But relative to all of the amazing books that bookend it.

Sorry, they kind of feel a little worthless, relatively, to the treasure trove of awesomeness that we’re getting out of all the other books. So it’s like, what? Can you maybe just speak a little bit to, like, even the purpose of understanding what those books are and why they’re even in there? And is that kind of where you’re talking about that transition between the king line and the priest line of the. I just want to maybe make sure we kind of have context of what exactly you’re talking about.

[00:07:04] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think so. Mormon. He pulls his whole record from the large plates and the large plates, he says he can’t even write down 100th part of what was recorded there in his bridge.

[00:07:15] Speaker B: It’s kind of the king line. Right?

[00:07:16] Speaker A: That’s the king line, right. And he’s got his abridgment. And as he’s finishing this up, he discovers these small plates. And really, it’s retelling the story from the beginning that he’s already written in there.

And he looks at it and he values what’s in there. And I don’t think he’s valuing the words of some of these smaller books as they’re trailing off. I think he’s looking at the prophecies of Nephi and seeing Nephis words. I think he’s looking at Jacob and how Jacob interprets Isaiah, and he’s looking at Enos and seeing the power behind that story. And he’s saying, you know what? These are great. Let’s just. And it’s small enough. I’m not going to condense this. Let’s just put this whole record inside the plates, which works out to our benefit when we lose the 116 pages, which was lost, what I assume is a translation of Mormon’s abridgment that started at the beginning with Lehi, up to the point where we hit Mosiah and King Benjamin and Mosiah.

And so this feels as a second version of those large plates.

But rather than being abridged, it’s firsthand accounts that kind of gets dropped in there that takes the place of those missing pages. And for Mormon’s point of view, he feels inspired to do this. And I think part of that is God knowing that those 116 pages are going to get lost.

But you’ve asked me a good question of why not. I mean, obviously, he’s in the business of redacting. He’s abridging books. He’s making them shorter. Why not just cut some of these smaller books off? Right. And I see how the smaller books land when they’re talking about discovering the people of Zarahemla. When they’re talking about, they find Coriantumr. And Mosiah is able to translate from a stone the story of Coriantumr and where it came from. There’s tie ins with the book of ether. There’s tie ins with what we see with Mosiah.

And I think he’s looking at it. And how do I take this small record and tie it back into the record that I’ve already translated? And so he, I think he leaves all of those hanging there. Cause it does give a full accounting so that we’re not left with any holes. But it also has these little tie ins that kind of work to support what he’s already created and how it fits in relationship to what he’s already done, if that makes sense.

[00:09:44] Speaker B: Totally makes sense. Thank you.

[00:09:46] Speaker A: And there’s a few verses that I wanted to kind of hit to preface what we’re going with today and really circling around the people that they find in Zarahemla. Right. And so if I go back, if I go back into Omni, and then let’s go into trying to see where I want to dive in with this. Verse 14.

And they discovered a people who were called the people of Zarahemla. Now, there were great rejoicing among the people of Zarahemla. And also Zarahemla did rejoice exceedingly because the. The Lord has sent the people of Mosiah with the plates of brass which contain the record of the Jews. So they talk about discovering this people, and they left out of Jerusalem at the time of the destruction. Zarahamlet descends from one of the sons of Zedekiah, who survives the whole babylonian captivity, takeover, destruction of Jerusalem.

And when we’re talking about this people of Zarahemla, this is just a few interesting verses that kind of stick out to me. Verse 17. And at that time that Mosiah discovered them, they had become exceedingly numerous.

And I think that’s interesting because you talk about the Nephites.

Nephi takes his people on a journey away from where they first settled, into the land of Nephi. Mosiah is going to also be doing a repeat here. You get an exodus account where Mosiah pulls all the people that are willing to listen to him, and they go out and they find the land of Zarahemla, and they kind of this people that vastly outnumber them, and they talk about how much greater the number of people are, and how they had exceedingly multiplied greater than them, and they merged together and still make Mosiah a king, which is super fascinating on two accounts.

One is, if the people of Zarahemla are more numerous, why are they conceding the right to rule to the smaller people that, by the way, are getting beat?

Why is Mosiah leaving? It’s not because he’s conquering. He’s not a conquistador. Right? It’s because he’s getting his trash kicked somewhere else. He’s fleeing for his life. So, in all accounts, these knee fights seem like a weaker party. They’re fleeing from their enemies. They’re looking for refuge. They’re the refugees among a people that’s far outnumbering them. And yet Mosiah gets the kingship on that, which is interesting.

And now, on the second account, Zarahemla can count his descendancy to the son of Zedekiah. Zedekiah was a ruler in Jerusalem. So if the Nephites are Jews who left Jerusalem, then here is somebody from the line of Judah, not Joseph Judah, who has the right to rule. And yet Mosiah still ends up with the kingship, which is fascinating. I think the reason why Mosiah retains the kingship is because of the sword of Laban, the brass plates. And really, those tokens that. That Nephi brings out, that establishes Nephi as a king, that they’re handing this tradition down from generation to generation to generation, where in Zedekiah’s, they don’t.

Who’s to believe him? He says he’s a descendant of Mulek, but what records establish that truth? And there’s a big thing with Jews on being able to declare your lineage. If a priest says that I descend from Aaron, therefore, the right of the priesthood is mine. They’ll never take him at his word. You have to show me the records that establish that even if Zarahemla is coming from Zedekiah, if he doesn’t have a written account that validates that or backs that up, he has no claim where the Nephites do. And so they make a big deal about the records that they’re bringing and how those records establish them. And I think it also gets super interesting if we go into Mosiah. So this is real quick. Yeah.

[00:14:14] Speaker B: I bet they wish they would have had some begatting going on.

[00:14:21] Speaker A: That’s a great drop. But yes, it’s a good point.

[00:14:23] Speaker B: I bet they regret not begetting now.

[00:14:25] Speaker A: Dude, they loved their begatting.

[00:14:28] Speaker B: That’s right.

[00:14:28] Speaker A: It was a significant part of the history. And there’s a reason why you see.

[00:14:32] Speaker B: That so much in the Old Testament, Zarahemla or whatever.

That’s the, that’s a, I just had to throw that in there.

[00:14:41] Speaker A: Well, and you’ll notice, you’ll notice when they introduce the people of Zarahemla, they don’t even mention that Zarahemla comes from Zedekiah.

So it’s funny because it’s an omni, right? And it’s not Omni that’s writing. It’s one of the smaller ones after him. Right. We get to, let’s see, let’s see. I want to say let’s go verse 18. But it came to pass that Mosiah caused that they should be taught in his language. And it came to pass that after they were taught in the language of Mosiah, Zarahemla gave a genealogy of his father’s according to his memory.

It’s not written down. Right. See, and how they’re recording it according to his memory, they don’t mention that he comes from Zedekiah. It’s not until later in Mosiah that Mormon gives us that insight. But the ones that are keeping the plates right here, they’re making a big point of Mosiah was the king. He could. I mean, they’re kind of highlighting these things and they’re diminishing Zarahemla’s claim and intentionally not including some of that.

[00:15:54] Speaker B: Keep better records.

[00:15:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know what? It’s also interesting that he’s saying, well, he teaches him the language of their fathers, right?

And you wonder, how does somebody lose the language?

Aren’t you not speaking it all the time? How in the world do the plates make that big of a difference? And I think we get some clues to that when we step into this week’s reading. In the book of Mosiah, it says verse two. And it came to pass that he had three sons talking about king. Let’s see, King Benjamin. He had three sons, and he called their names Mosiah and Helyram and Helaman. And he caused that they should be taught in all the language of his fathers. This is something Enos said, I was taught in the language of my father. This is something Nephi says, being taught in the language of my fAther. What does it mean to be taught in the language of your fathers? And what does it mean to forget the language of your fathers? And I’m gonna go into verse four.

For if it were not possible that our father Lehi could have remembered all of the things to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates, for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians, therefore he could read these engravings. So when we talk about the language of their fathers, it’s not their immediate fAther.

Who did Nephi descend from?

Joseph. And Joseph was a prominent ruler in Egypt.

And Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, were born in Egypt.

What was the language of their fathers? It’s easy for us to think, oh, well, Lehi was HebREw. It’s Hebrew. But if this is the record of JosEph, it was started in Egypt and it was written in Egyptian.

And so the language of their fathers might not be Hebrew like we keep thinking it is, or we associate it with. I think the reason why they had the plates and they could read the plates is because they took the time to teach their children not just the Hebrew they spoke, but the language of their fathers, where it came from, where it all started. For them, the book of their fathers was egyptian, and they had to stay fresh on the Egyptian to be able to read the plates, to be able to have the commandments, and to be able to save the begetting, the begats.

Maybe a few more words on these people in Zarahemla.

And so, history typically is written by the winners. I think we even talked a little bit about this last week, and I think what makes the Book of mormons so unique and special, similar to the Bible, is that it’s history, not written by the political winners. The political winners. And I’m glad you clarified that. Right? Because I think that’s important that we add that clarification.

We keep thinking of these Nephites as this dominant party. And, in fact, in omni, again, verse 24.

And behold, I have seen in the days of King Benjamin a serious war and much bloodshed between the Nephites and the Lamanites. But behold, the Nephites did obtain much advantage over them.

And this is what we see all the time. The Nephites are obtaining the advantage over them. And whoever’s writing history always makes themselves out to be the winner, right? The stronger ones, we had the advantage. And there’s always a little bit of a skew or a flavor to that. We were better. We were better. We were better.

And there’s a clue to this, though.

The Nephites did obtain the advantage over them, yea, insomuch that King Benjamin did drive them out of the land of zarahemla. Wait a second.

They were kicked out of Zarahemla, too, in that 400 year black hole. Not only did they lose the land of Nephi, but when they went up to the zarahemla and discovered the Mulokites and joined with the people even more massive than them, the Lamanites pursued him all the way up into zarahemla and kicked him out of there, too. So tell me, who had the advantage over who? The Nephites never once take land from the Lamanites. They’re always losing it and shrinking and disappearing, which is interesting to me. And it’s also interesting to me when you do the math, Nephi and Sam and Jacob and Joseph and Zoram all separate and go one way, and you’ve got Laman and Lemuel on the other hand, you outnumber them. You more than double what you’re leaving behind, unless you also count Ishmael’s sons.

[00:20:53] Speaker B: That’s what I was going to say. You got to still account for some of Ishmael’s kids.

[00:20:56] Speaker A: But then you also say that Nephi took his sisters with them and their families, right? True.

[00:21:02] Speaker B: There’s unknowns on both sides, is all I was gonna say.

[00:21:05] Speaker A: There’s unknowns, but it makes it sound like more follow Nephi than stay behind, right?

[00:21:12] Speaker B: Yes.

[00:21:13] Speaker A: And so you look at that, and then you see Jacob says, you guys are practicing polygamy, when even the Lamanites will refuse to do that, because that was a commandment that Lehi gave them. They will only have one wife. So if you have somebody, a group of people that starts off twice as populous at the very least than another, and they’re practicing polygamy and growing at a faster rate, and then you have them discover a people that even far outnumbered them. When you’re talking about how numerous the people of Zarahemla were that outnumbered the Nephites.

And then you have this group, this original group of Just Laman and Lemuel and some of Ishmael. Whoever stayed in that group comes in and obtains the advantage over them. How are they getting the advantage of numbers?

And I think it’s a fair point to stop for a second and talk about what the Book of Mormon includes and what it doesn’t.

And what we’re getting here is all of the perspective from the Nephites. What we’re not getting here is any of the story of the Lamanites. If the Nephites come across the people of the Mulokites, and the Mulokites come across the people of Coriantumr, and we’re hearing, and by the way, when they come across the people of the Mulokites, we have an introduction of greek words into the book of Mormon that didn’t exist there before.

We don’t have greek words in the early, in the small plates. Right. When we find these people of Zarahemla, now, you’re going to start seeing Greek make its way in. And greek names. Laconius is a greek name. Some of the twelve apostles actually have greek names. And so you think about how did the Mulokites make it over to the new world?

If they’re escaping and Babylon is ruling the entire known world, they’re coming out and up into parts of the world that weren’t in the Middle east, that weren’t part of here. Greece. Greece is the closest, nearest neighbor, which is going to make its entrance into this scene.

After the Babylonians with the Persians, there’s still definitely Greeks there, and they have some interactions. They’re just not part of babylonian rule. It would make sense that they’re fleeing to the Greeks, and it would make sense that they would want to get as far away from that side of the world that they can. The Greeks are excellent navigators. They have boats, their salesmen, they have the capability. I wonder if, when Mulek leaves with whatever large party of people is going with them, if it does not include greek sailors, greek tradesmen, greek people, and that’s where you start to see greek influence come into the Book of Mormon. But going back to what we’re talking about, you have this large number of people, and you have the Nephites from their perspective. You keep seeing them run into new groups of people, and you have a 400 year gap where we don’t even get a lot of the details. What’s happening on the other side of the fence, who are the Lamanites running into? What groups are they assimilating with? Because they say, as numerous as we were, even with the people of Zarahemla, we were far outnumbered by the Lamanites. What allies were the Lamanites building with? What local people were they picking up customs and traditions and incorporating with? We don’t have any of their stories. And for me to see them outnumber in a long ways the Nephites, I wonder if they’re not coming across a lot of different groups, and there’s a lot of mixing that’s happening on the other side of the fence.

One last thought that kind of stood out to me, and then maybe I’ll tell you a story that kind of bridges this gap. And then I think we need to kind of go in strong with King Benjamin and finish up with him going back into Omni.

You would think when Nephi comes with Laman and Lemuel, it was a constant fight from the beginning, Laman and Lemuel trying to kill him and whatnot. And you would think, what would it be like if Nephi would have left Laman and Lemuel behind?

You have the Mulokites, the people of Zarahemla. They don’t have the Laman and Lemuel to balance them out and to fight against. Right?

But check this out. It’s just a small little line in verse 17.

When it’s talking about the people of Zarahemla. It says, nevertheless, they had many wars and serious contentions and had fallen by the sword from time to time.

So the people of Zarahemla, who are they fighting?

Are they having civil wars? Is it a lot of infighting? Are they also meeting with other cultures and having fights? And who else is in this land and what else is going on? It’s just interesting that they’re having a lot of wars, too, that don’t include wars, necessarily with the Lamanites. So just some perspective on that.

All right, let me kick you one story. This comes from Don Bradley. I’m a huge fan of his work, and Don Bradley has tried to piece together what we don’t have from the 116 pages that were translated. And in his research, he found an interview where somebody had talked to Joseph Smith, Sr. And asked him questions about what was in those 116 pages. And he tells an interesting story that ties in with Mosiah here that I feel it’s kind of worth dropping, if we can.

He says, it’s interesting we read about the Urim and Thummim in the book of Ether. And the Jaredites had the urim and Thummim. Jared gets it right when he carves out the stones and he sees the finger of the Lord. And then all of a sudden, Moroni has them there at the end that he’s burying in with the plates. But how did they get from the Jaredites to the Nephites? Where do we get these Urim and thummim all of a sudden making their appearance?

And the other thing is, the Liahona disappears. It was a very significant thing to help Nephi and Lehi leave Jerusalem, come over to the new world. And it was helpful for Nephi to go and make his way into the wilderness. They used it. Why did they stop using such a valuable instrument? And if it had writings from the Lord and it was the director and it was a symbol of their faith, why would that fall to the wayside? It almost seems like their version of the Ark of the Covenant. Why would they stop? Why wouldn’t that thing be used always?

So Don Bradley says that in this interview, Joseph Smith Sr. Told a story about how Mosiah was following the Liahona, and which. Which kind of jives with what we’re reading right here. Right. Mosiah is leading his people away up into the land of. Of Zarahemla. And as he’s following the liahona, it takes him to these two stones that he finds, the Urim and Thummim. And he doesn’t know what these stones are, what they’re for. So he picks these stones up, and he brings them back to the tabernacle, or the temple of God. And from behind the veil, the Lord calls and asks, what is that in your hand?

To which Mosiah responds, I don’t know. That’s why I’ve come here, to ask the Lord. And the Lord tells him that these are the urim and thummim, lights and perfections. This is the instruments that I’ve used to prepare for helping prophets, to help people. And they become interpreters. Right? Mosiah is known for his ability to translate. He translates the stone that’s written in different language, that tells the story of Coriantumr.

And this kind of sets the stage when these people that split off to go back into the land of Nephi, and they get lost and they find all of these plates, these gold records from the jaredites. They say, hey, we know somebody that can translate. It’s coming back to the story, right? And this is kind of a transition from using the Liahona to starting to use the Urim and Thummim and how the Yurim Thummim gets introduced into the nephite history. So it’s kind of an interesting story. If you want to read more about it, Don Bradley has a book, the lost 116 pages, where he tries to restructure what was in there from his scholarly research into this time period and some of the questions that he’s kind of dove into. And so it’s worth mentioning because it’s that part of the book.

All right, let’s keep going into Mosiah, and a lot of research has been done to link King Benjamin’s speech to the Sukkot festival of the Jews. And I think that’s worth mentioning because I think there’s some really accurate connections to that. The first festival we read about back in Exodus, and we can read about it in chapter 23, chapter 24. And interesting enough, Nate, this festival is when Moses gathers everybody to the base of Mount Sinai, and then he addresses them from Mount Sinai. Now, think. This is before God gave him instructions to build the tabernacle. And Mount Sinai stands in the place of a temple. So when you get KInG Benjamin here, pulling everybody together in tents surrounding the temple, it’s mimicking this early moses pulling everyone together in their tents around the Mount Sinai, and then later, they get instructions. So this is actually where MOSes gets the TEn commandments. He’s called up into the mountain, and he reveals the law, he reveals the covenant. This is the covenant process, where he reveals that to the people, and they all shout with one voice that they will obey the law, and they will covenant with moses and receive this new name.

There’s a lot of really similar parallels with what we see with KING Benjamin.

And when the Jews return out of captivity from Babylon, they choose that same festival for the rededication of their temple.

And when they rededicate it, they build a wooden structure for their prophet to stand on and announce and deliver the speech. The rededication, the law, the covenants to the people. And they’re rededicating their. Surrounding the temple again and celebrating this.

This festival of tabernacles, which is supposed to be a remembrance of when they lived in tents where they dwelt in the wilderness and the Lord taking them out of the land of Egypt and delivering them. So there’s a lot of powerful connections with this early festival. And if we go into Exodus, chapter 23, and even 24, we start reading about it. Verse 14 three times. This is Exodus 23 three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year. Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread. And the feast of the harvest, the first fruits thereof. And then the feast of the gathering, the ingathering, which is the end of the year. And that’s what the feast of the fest of the Sukkot festival, the Tabernacle festival, is, is that last feast of the ingathering at the end of the year.

Three times in the year, all thy males shall appear before the Lord thy God. And he talks about them all. So there’s three festivals where they have to make that journey to Jerusalem, to the temple. And in this case, they’re doing it to the temple in King Benjamin, where he’s pulling him in. And they have to bring offerings to sacrifice. And so we go back into Mosiah, and it says that they’re bringing the first fruits. Not the first fruits, but the firstborn for sacrifice to this. And this is chapter two of Mosiah, verse three. And they took also of the firstlings of their flock. That they might offer sacrifice and burnt offerings according to the law of Moses. And it’s kind of interesting.

When they did the sacrifice at the end of the year, the harvest, there was seven days of sacrificing animals. And they would sacrifice 13 on the first and twelve and eleven and ten and nine and eight. And so it ends up being 70 animals that they sacrifice. And they’re sacrificing them for the 70 nations of the world and the country. So the Jews are not just sacrificing for their own sake or for their own salvation. It’s kind of interesting. It kind of goes back to job at the beginning of his story, where he is sacrificing on behalf of his children.

And what they’re doing is they’re sacrificing for all the nations of the world. That there might be peace, that there might be salvation. They’re bringing this into the temple, that all the nations of the world might be blessed from the temple. And so going back to King Benjamin, and they say in his time, he was able to establish peace. And so you look at the connections of him bridging the gap.

His father, Mosiah, bridging the gap with the people of Zarahemlam, becoming a king there and establishing peace. And them kind of reestablishing their land that they recapture back from the Lamanites that had driven them out. And really trying to bring sacrifices to establish a peaceful situation for them in this new world. So there’s a lot of cool little connections with that. Let me just, let me just highlight a few from Exodus 24, and then I’ll move on from that.

So in Exodus 24, and I want you guys who are listening just to be thinking about, I think you guys are a lot more familiar with King Benjamin’s speech. So think about King Benjamin as we go through this. Moses recited God’s commandments, which he wrote in the book.

Is that not what King Benjamin. I keep saying, yeah, it’s King Benjamin, what he’s doing in speech. Right. All the people answered with one voice and said all the words which the Lord has said, we will do. An altar was constructed along with twelve pillars in token of the covenant sacrifices of burnt and peace offerings. The blood of the sacrificial animals was sprinkled on the altar. Moses read to the people from the book of the covenant. The people repeated their covenants of obedience. The blood of the covenant was sprinkled on the people, kind of sealing the deal. The israelite leaders went up to the mountain where they sang, they saw God, ate and drank.

The Lord called Moses to give him the law and the commandments written on the stone tablets. A cloud in the glory of the Lord covered the Mount Sinai for six days. On the 7th day, the Lord called to Moses from the cloud.

So this, there’s a lot of connections that seem to fit with what we see with King Benjamin’s speech. And he’s coming with a new era. He’s going to take Moses, Moses, Mosiah, and consecrate him and make him a king over his people and kind of pass the baton.

[00:36:23] Speaker B: All right, that’s even funny, though. Moses and Mosiah.

[00:36:29] Speaker A: It is, right? It kind of is funny connection. And even when Solomon builds the temple, it’s going to be dedication with the Sukkot festival as well. So there’s a lot of connections there. They just lost the temple in the land of Nephi, and they’re probably going to be building a new temple here in Zarahemla. And it might correspond timing wise, right.

If this is happening earlier in Benjamin’s day and now at the end of his life and he’s passing the baton, it might be a time where they’ve just barely built this new temple and they’re dedicating it as well.

All right, maybe just a few verses to highlight from the speech, and maybe that’ll about wrap it up for us.

[00:37:13] Speaker B: Let’s do it.

[00:37:16] Speaker A: Let’s see.

There’s a few things that stand out to me, obviously. Mosiah 319. Right. For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things that the Lord seeth fit to inflict on him even as a child, to submit to his father.

And I think, Nate, that goes so well with what we’ve been saying and seeing in the last little bit. Not my will, but thy will, right? And not having any more gods in front of God even from the beginning, right? Not saying I have a better idea, but being willing to submit to what God says to do.

[00:38:12] Speaker B: This has always been one of my favorite scriptures.

Like all good scriptures, I feel like you take a different meaning from it the older you get. And it is totally true with this one as well. And it’s kind of a, there’s this kind of the irony, I feel like, of life is that you go, I have a daughter that’s eleven who is very confident that she, you know, kind of knows it all. Not in a snotty way, but, you know, like you, where you are in life, you’re like, I got it figured out, man, when I was six, man, I thought I knew everything. But now that I’m twelve, I totally do.

You know what I’m saying? You know where I’m going with this, right?

[00:39:02] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:39:03] Speaker B: Because then you turn 21 and you’re like, man, when I was 16 I thought I knew everything.

Now I’ve really got it together. And when you turn 30, same thing. And I’m 40 plus now and I’m going, man, I thought I really had it together at 30, but it’s like, I’m glad I really do now. Right?

And I’ve always kind of wondered when that cycle ends.

And there’s a part of me that has concluded that we’re going to get to 85 years old or 90 and we’re gonna be like, you know what? I actually kind of had it all together at eight. You know, like maybe at eight is when I actually, when I actually knew what I needed to know, which is like, be cool to your friends.

Don’t pick on people, you know? It’s like in a weird sort of way, it’s like, at eight it’s like, still believe, still have faith without a bunch of reservations. Like in a weird sort of way, it’s like I sometimes wonder if between eight and 80, it’s so much a process of just, like, bogging down and getting in the way of all of the things that we really kind of had together as a child.

There’s, you know, we talk about the faith of a child, but what does that really mean?

And you really do see it when you start having children who really do believe you when you say, hey, this is, to me, this is what I believe, and this is what I know to the best that I can. And a child, it goes, cool, I’m all in.

That’s why you got kids that believe in Santa. It’s why you got kids that believe in the truth. They really will. When we talk about submitting to their father. Right.


Obedience, sure.

Which is important, by the way. I’m not dismissing that. But there’s even just faith that comes along with that. And there’s times where I think that we put some sort of badge of honor on people like you or me who go, yeah, we’ve really had to, like, work on our faith because we want to be able to understand this from a scientific level, and we want to be able to understand this from a historical level, and we do. Right? Like, you and I, we love really getting into the weeds, man, the nitty gritty of this stuff. And I remember one of the first times I ever really met you, you were given a lesson in elders quorum about how the book of Genesis really could be describing the big Bang theory. And you know what I mean? It’s like there’s. And all these connections, right? And we almost, in a strange sort of a way, and I don’t. And I’ve learned to recognize this because I don’t think it’s good, but we almost shame the idea of, quote unquote blind faith.

We almost look at that as, like, a lesser faith than ours, which has to go through, like, the.

[00:42:17] Speaker A: The fire.

[00:42:17] Speaker B: The fire.

And we almost. It’s almost a dirty word, blind faith. Right? Like, well, you have all these people that just kind of, like, blindly follow their leaders and things like that. And you or me could look at that and be like, no, not us, though. Like, we’ve really paid it off. And then I’m just like, cool, man. Like, I’m married to somebody who I wouldn’t say has blind faith. In fact, I would say has so much more of a pure, deeper faith that she has never felt the need to go, why would I need to arbitrarily go through and on my own, try to, like, poke holes in this? She’s like, my life is beautiful because of this very pure, accepting, almost childlike faith where it’s like, yeah, why would I need to go and deconstruct this thing unnecessarily? And then I go, why on earth do we shame that man?

Why on earth is that supposedly lesser than.

And this scripture has taken on a very new meaning the more I try to. Because, by the way, it does put a significant responsibility, I feel, like, on us as parents when we do have these children. I mean, as a joke, I used to tell them I knew everything, and my wife, Heather, would have to be like, don’t tell them that, because they’ll believe you.

And they did, like, all the time, like, but I would say it as a joke, and I kind of let the joke linger for a little bit too long until I had to finally start being like, hey, guys, I’m so sorry that I, like, I played that joke too long. I by no means know everything. I know pretty much everything. But, you know, of course, Heather’s just like, what are you doing? Doing, right, my wife.

But it’s crazy how you really can tell your young children, yeah, I know everything. And they can be like, sweet, okay, great. Dad knows everything. And you’re like, oh, there is a responsibility that comes with this, that I think that there’s a lot of people that probably don’t take that seriously, that it’s like when I’m trying to teach my kids and testify to my kids and raise them in my faith, and what I believe, what I love is that that responsibility or that pressure that I feel again, is that it’s like, oh, I really do then want to make sure that I’m giving them good information and that I am giving them something to do, something pure to believe in. And I kind of want to be really careful not to kind of, like, convolute that with a bunch of things that maybe are just tradition or maybe just, you know, like, I kind of want to make sure that I’m really starting with where I can look them in the eye 20 years down the road and say, these are still the things that I know to be true. And at no point did I ever tell you anything outside of the things that I deeply believe and know. And look, wherever they end up in life, they still have a path to decide on. Right?

But reading the scripture again, when it says that we need to become like a child, I think that we need to be careful of all of the things that we sometimes culturally shame, such as pure faith and maybe a lot more innocent faith. And maybe I don’t want to call it blind faith, but maybe unapologetically accepting faith, you know, without just needing to just do everything we can to try to beat ourselves up and almost try to find ways to tear our own faith down. It’s like, man, I don’t feel like that’s. I feel like that’s not what we’re being commanded to do.

[00:46:22] Speaker A: That’s some serious wisdom you’re dropping.

[00:46:24] Speaker B: I mean, I. Dude, this is just me trying to put it all together, man.

This is me fumbling around in the dark.

[00:46:33] Speaker A: But that’s some amazing fumbling then.

And, you know, there’s another term that’s become derogatory today.

Sheep being a sheep.

[00:46:45] Speaker B: Please continue down this road, because it’s funny. Cause, yes, this is another angle. I’m glad you’re bringing this up, because I would have wanted to make sure that we brought this up, but continue.

[00:46:54] Speaker A: Well, yeah, like sheeple, right? Even. Even try to tell people that are, like, sheep and call them sheeple and, like, just how you just follow. You just follow whatever. And I’m not going to be a sheep. I’m not going to be submissive. I’m not going to be meek. I’m going to be a lion, or I’m going to be whatever, right? And I’m informed, or I’m educated, or I’m.

But isn’t that what the Lord says? Feed my sheep. And if you’re not one of mine, how can I be your shepherd? I need you to be a sheep.

[00:47:23] Speaker B: Even in all of his parables, who’s he out chasing? Who’s he running up the mountain to grab? Like, it’s. Dude, he is a lamb. We are the lamb.

Sweet. Completely agree with you on this. Why do we take so much time trying to shame that when, when. If we’re truly christians, isn’t that what we’re supposed to be?

Aren’t we supposed to be his sheep? Isn’t he the good shepherd? Aren’t we supposed to be willing to go, like. Yes. Like, we’ll. We’ll stay together as sheep do, to protect each other in a group. Shouldn’t we be the ones out there trying to find the lost sheep and bringing them back into the fold? Like, all completely agree with you on this. I’m so glad you brought this up.

[00:48:04] Speaker A: Well, you brought it up. I was just continuing it.

[00:48:06] Speaker B: Well, continue, man, because I’m with you on this. 100% submissive.

That’s an ugly word these days in pop culture.

Submissive. You know what? I mean, like, oh, no, no, no. Every, every. Everything that I am in life, I need to be what? Dominant.

It’s like, what if you actually read through that scripture again, you can almost find a way that the world tries to demonize or at least shame so many of the words that we read in there because, well, that’s not the way that we should be looking at a modern person, you know?

[00:48:49] Speaker A: And you’re like, you know, and if I can say this, I think that’s why so many missed the boat on the restoration. And let me put it this way.

When Christ came the first time, they were expecting not a sheep, a lion.

[00:49:07] Speaker B: They were expecting to conquer. That’s right.

[00:49:09] Speaker A: We need someone here that’s gonna just stick it in the face of our enemies and say, I am their God. You’re wrong, and I will wipe the face of the earth off and you’re not going to be there. And instead they got Christ and they missed it.

But are we any different? If our imagination of the second coming is some mighty God who’s going to come just wipe the face off the face of the earth, of our enemies off, and like, you were all wrong, and you’re going to burn and you’re going to die, and you’re going to be wiped off. And we were right.

And here comes God. There’s this mighty, but what does he do to a 14 year old boy?

And his message is a meek, mild message. By the way, I have come. I have restored the gospel. What’s the very first proclamation to the world that the twelve apostles write is we are letting the kings, the rulers, the world knows in a very meek and humble way, the Lord has returned.

This is his gospel. This is the church of Jesus Christ.

And are we today? And by we are there a lot of people today who fall in the same trap of the house of Israel? The first time the Lord came and expecting something else than a savior and expecting that the restoration, the second coming needs to be a lot more violent. We need to overthrow all of these naughty nations, these people that are oppressing us, and just stick it to them and let them know that we were right all along, when really it’s about putting a name tag on your shirt and being humiliated. It’s about knocking on doors and having people close them in your face. Maybe it’s the same thing that happened the first time that we’re missing the second time.

[00:51:06] Speaker B: It’s really great that you bring this up. I mean, what’s been a common theme in general conference for the last two years.

Stop yelling at people.

Stop fighting. What are you doing?

If you think that it’s somebody else that needs to hear this message, you’ve missed the point of this message. I mean, that’s been the theme of the last couple, like, years worth of conference is, if you wouldn’t mind. I mean, I could tell you, too. Cause I know it by heart. Submissive, meek, humble, full of love. You know what I mean? It’s like, what does the scripture actually say? It mirrors exactly what we’re being told. I feel like routinely now, conference after conference, which, yes, is a bit of a massive tone shift from when we were young, right? Which, again, where, to be fair, like, in a lot of the speeches, maybe not in conference itself, but there was very much a tone of like, hey, man, like, come on, go out there and tell them how it is. And you’re like, okay, well, I see that there is some value in standing up for what you believe in. And I don’t think that we’re being told not to do that.

I think it’s the tone in how we’re being told to stand up for what we believe in. I think just feels like it much more closely mirrors this, which is maybe be so much more okay, to humbly stand up for what, you know, to stand where you are. And then maybe it’s not as important to be out there, you know, trying to, like you said, disprove everything with, you know, I don’t know, with aggression and with all of these things, and instead doing it with meekness and with humility. And, I mean, Christ is the perfect example, I feel like, of all of these things. And when you read through the New Testament, which I just had so much fun doing this last year, is you just look at how he handles so many of these contentious situations, and then truly, by the time he is going to basically be unjustly tried and executed, he’s not even opening his mouth in those cases. He knows he is the lamb.

Like, what are you going to. Are you going to beat up the. I mean, Christ refers to himself as the sheep, as the lamb. Why do we care so much that people use that as a term, a derogatory term towards us?

Why should we take submissive as a derogatory term, especially when it comes to us and our relationship with God, with our parents and meek and humble?

It’s like those shouldn’t be terms that we should be embarrassed by, ever.

We should strive for those things.

I hope that at 85 years old, one, I hope I live that long. I hope that at 90, I can look back and go, I had it figured out way long ago, and the rest of my life was spent blowing it, so. But I’m glad that by the end, you know, I’m glad that by the end, hopefully, I’ve been able to unlearn a lot of the garbage that I thought I was learning and maybe strip away all of that garbage back to the purest things, which, you know, it ate, which is like, love your friends.

Treat people with kindness. Don’t steal. Share. You know what I mean? Like, all of the things that we kind of did have sorted out. I look at my kids and I’m like, they can go meet friends on a playground.

They don’t judge people. They don’t realize there’s supposed to be any difference between them and somebody that looks or acts different than they do.

They’re trusting, they’re loyal.

They’re all of the things, man.

It almost makes me so sad that life is going to unfortunately beat that out of them, because it does. And there’s value in that, too, I suppose. But maybe it’s part of the reason that sometimes as we’re looking through those old photo albums and we see our kids growing up, who so much of that is amazing, we see these pictures of them as little kids, and you almost just get sad. Cause you’re like, yeah, I miss that. But I think maybe part of that that’s baked in is you’re like, man, there’s just such a happiness there, and there’s just such an innocence again. Like, not to beat this to death, but when we think of our childhoods, it doesn’t matter almost if we grew up in poverty, if we grew up in gnarly situations, like, in a weird sort of way, we didn’t know any different. And we kind of just, you know, we look back at our summer as a childhood. We’re like, yeah, man, it was great. We’re running around stuff like that and whatever, and then you can go like, oh, well, we didn’t necessarily have a ton of, like, extra money to be spending, and, like, you know, we never went hungry, but, like, we. We weren’t buying boats or anything like that. It didn’t make us any less happy as children. We didn’t. We didn’t know that we should have had to have that. You and I didn’t have cell phones. We had, like, maybe an NES or whatever it is, but I’m saying we didn’t have endless amounts of movies and video games, stuff like that, but we were crazy happy. Because, by the way, maybe at eight years old, you just accept that I’m supposed to be happy in this environment that I’m in.

And it sucks that maybe as we get older, we start getting unrealistic expectations of what happiness even should be. I’m just saying the scripture hits a lot different, man. Like when you really start understanding what the pure happiness and faith of a child actually is and you look and you go, man, that is something to strive for.

[00:57:03] Speaker A: Well, and maybe even tonight, we’re both learning from our wives as we’re going through, as we’re going through this and talking about this and kind of exploring what this means, I’m thinking back on another lesson that Janessa pointed out to me, going back to those small books that we just kind of skipped over.

And she says in there, Jerem says that he’s not going to write much, but he also talks about how really the record are just for the Lamanites because all their seed’s going to be destroyed anyways, right? And what was the prayer of Venus? What was the prayer of Lehi? Was that when their seed gets destroyed that somehow these plates, these records can be brought out and go back to their brethren and convert the Lamanites and teach them and help them and save the Lamanites. And Jeremy wife pointed out, he’s kind of approaching this from a, why do I care about them anyways? We’re sitting here engaged in constant war. They’re killing us. Why should I waste space on these plates trying to talk to a people that I don’t even care about, right? And so she’s looking at this and saying, maybe this is where the love starts to die. And that’s why you see the failing of a people is because they no longer love their enemies, right? It’s more about how can God come here and just smite my enemies, rather than what can I do to try to reclaim my enemies? And so it’s kind of an interesting thing that she pointed out to me that maybe with the failing of this nation, what failed first was love and then everything else.

[00:58:43] Speaker B: Okay, you’re nailing this and I’m gonna just lock this into what the conversation is, is a child is also forgiving, much more so than I am in my petty, bitter, you know what I mean? Like traumatized from years of whatever soul, you know, I mean, it’s like, as an adult, it’s like we can, we’re good at hanging on to grudges forever.

Isn’t it mind blowing how forgiving children are?

I’m just saying like, dude, that’s something to look towards, man. There’s a reason Jesus was like, bring me these guys. Hey, everybody around. Look, this is who you’re supposed to be. Like, hey, you pharisees and adults. And everybody’s like this.

[00:59:32] Speaker A: It’s a humbling conversation.

[00:59:34] Speaker B: It’s why I get, and again, like, I want to keep this uplifting and positive. But I will tell you, this is why I don’t. And I luckily understand why I don’t like using the phrase with kids. Like, well, how do you think that makes Jesus feel when you do that to a kid? I’m like, well, the scriptures would suggest that Jesus in this situation would probably come to you and say, hey, bro, you need to try to be like this. So maybe don’t tell this child how I feel. You know what I mean? That’s a real, that’s a massive rub for me.

To me, it’s like, as an adult, I should be able to be like, hey, this is how that behavior makes me feel. And even then it’s like, man, but I should also still, in this case, be the adult and probably have better control over my feelings than a child who’s just learning how to behave, right? I don’t like that. And it’s. And I never have. And I’m glad that, by the way, you don’t really hear that a lot too much anymore. Right? Well, when you lie, how do you think that makes Jesus feel? I don’t know. Jesus would probably come and love them and bless them and hug them and be like, hey, you’ll figure it out. Hey, everybody, you should probably be like this person, right? That’s how Jesus feels. To answer the question, I appreciate you bringing that up because, yes, as adults, we do get hurt and we let that linger. And we use that to build walls and we use that, unfortunately, we use tough times in our life. We probably not on purpose to shield ourselves from hurt and to shield ourselves from whatever. And my goodness, like, go apologize to your kid tomorrow night and see how quick they are to put their arms back around your neck and be like, no problem.

There’s something to learn from that, man.

[01:01:22] Speaker A: Absolutely.

[01:01:24] Speaker B: And I’m glad that Janessa brought that up because that’s a very profound point.

You can kind of see. You can kind of see what happens when resentment just becomes a cancerous root right in your heart, man. It’s.

A lot of other things die other than just love, right?

Anyways, sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off. I just wanted to kind of continue to add to that.

[01:01:49] Speaker A: This is perfect. This is perfect. I think the only other thing I.

[01:01:51] Speaker B: Wanted to talk about, Mosiah, not 217, you didn’t even want to go when you were in the service of your fellow beings. I thought for sure we were going to at least hit all my.

[01:01:59] Speaker A: We should, right? We should.

I mean, that was it, right, with Benjamin. And I keep saying Mosiah and I keep getting these two swapped, right? When Benjamin talks about his ability to provide for himself, even though he’s king, even though he’s the top of the deal, he’s not making everybody support him, he’s working hard for his own labor.

And he’s saying, like, if I am your king and I’m doing that, but whose example is he really following?

And it’s funny I say that because he’s actually 100, 3120 years before Christ even is born, right? But he’s a type of Christ, because Christ didn’t come here to say, peter, wash my feet.

[01:02:45] Speaker B: That’s right.

[01:02:46] Speaker A: He washed Peter’s feet.

And there’s the greatest of us is, is, is the servant. And that’s where it takes us, right? Mosiah, 217 and it’s where it’s gonna take us with.

I mean, he goes into the whole spill about the dust of the earth. You, you were created, right? You were in debt to God for creating this planet, for creating a body, for giving you this existence, for, for having everything, we’re already in his debt.

And the crazy thing is, as much as I try to serve God and go to that verse, right, in, as much as you’re in the service of your fellow beings, you’re only in the service of God. So if I see somebody struggling along the way and I go out of my way to love them, to help them, maybe to be a little more childlike, to carry on the points that we’ve been hitting tonight and put my arms around them, then you think, I’ve paid you back, God. And you’re like, wait a second. The feelings that you get, the enlightenment, the enrichment, the friendship that you gain, the benefits that God is immediately repaying you for that.

And now you haven’t even scratched the debt from everything that began with. And that’s where he gets into the whole unprofitable servant spill, right? It doesn’t matter how much you do this. You’re always in debt to God. And I think going back to the same point, it’s humbling.

It’s a humbling. And go back to the discussion that we had a few weeks back with, with Jacob and the allegory of the olive tree. What’s wrong is the branch is growing faster than the roots. It’s pride, it’s arrogancy. When we think, when we become that God, we put in front of God thinking that we know better. And the solution is the roots have to grow just as fast. Where are we rooted in our testimony in Christ? And are we allowing that to grow and realizing that we are connected to him and his hands, his flesh, his servants if we are to be like him? That is the key to success in that. I think that was the other hard thing I wanted to hit from King Benjamin’s speech.

[01:04:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I had one thought that I just wanted to highlight too about King Benjamin this week, which was I can’t remember exactly what even the discussion was about a while ago, but I was teaching a lesson for something and the question popped into my mind, what did King Benjamin look like?

And it’s funny cause like you have again, thank you Freiburg, for giving us all of the stripling warriors looking like muscle men, beefcakes.

We don’t get King Benjamin, right? We didn’t get the old school thing. So I was like, I wonder what he looked like? And it’s like, I immediately think of the old, like massive, you know, like you think of the stripling warriors or you think of Moroni holding up like the title of Liberty, you know what I mean? You think of all of the things, right? But it’s like, I don’t think of Benjamin like that. It’s like I almost picture just a leathered, you know what I mean? A leathered skin farmhand that’s just been or you know, a rancher that’s just been out in the fields, his life just working. And there’s something incredibly connective between who King Benjamin was.

When you talk about, hey, he’s out providing for himself, he’s out, he’s out digging in the dirt and then what so much of his speech is, right? Because by the way, of course, of course somebody that has been out in the fields is going to talk about humility and is going to talk about faith and is going to talk about service, right?

I’ve on multiple occasions thought what an incredible amount of faith just your regular farmer has to have in just their occupation.

Like true real faith processes though, right? I’ve seen the process work because isn’t that what good faith should be, by the way, is you try something and when it works, you go, I now have faith to continue to do that again. But is there any more of an occupation that really relies on faith? More than I’m going to invest my time, I’m going to invest my money in planting a crop. I’m going to do everything I can. But, dude, at the end of the year, I’m going to have faith that that process still works, that that seed will take root, that that crop will. That I can then harvest that crop, pay my bills, feed my family, and then do that whole thing over and over again year after year. Right? Like, there’s something beautiful about Benjamin being physically in the dirt, right?

Then giving a sermon about the idea that is like, this is where you came from and this is where you’ll return.

And there’s a humility in that. But also knowing, even though basically we are dirt. You know what I mean, Clay, that has been given the breath of life from God.

So much of these things in our lives that we feel like are in our control, aren’t.

And as much as we want to hold onto the idea that we can control every aspect of our life, so much of it is in God’s hands. And I love the idea of King Benjamin. And the more that I’ve really started understanding who he was as a person, other than just the speech, the more it’s really unlocked a lot of admiration for him in this story and where he was outside of the beautiful speeches that he’s given. But it’s like, I love the idea that you have this leathered old man coming and being like, let me teach you guys a thing or two about humility and the idea that it’s like we are nothing without God.

Therefore serve, therefore provide for yourselves.

Don’t rely on other people.

Be kind, be humble, be meek, be submissive. Of course, this is the person giving that speech almost, maybe more so than even any of our other main characters up to this point could have given. Right? Like, he lived the perfect life to give this incredible sermon that we get. And so I just kind of wanted to, as we get into the King Benjamin stuff, I wanted to at least highlight the idea of consider the source on this, too. And it’s beautiful when you do, when you consider who this is that is going to be teaching us these things.

[01:09:54] Speaker A: The image that that paints in my mind as you’re going through that honestly is Elder Joseph B. Worthlin before he dies. Right, Swifty?

[01:10:04] Speaker B: I love him, by the way. He was great.

[01:10:07] Speaker A: And it was Elder Nelson at the time. He wasn’t present, right, but standing behind, holding him as he just trembled and shook.

Yet the love he had the dedication he had to try to get that message out. It was that important to him.

And King Benjamin mentions a very similar thing. He’s like, I’m old and I am shaking before you. I am trembling. I’m going to die soon.

And I think he comes across so powerful, not because we’re hearing him, but because of how important his words were for people to write them down.

When you’re talking about all these people gathered around this temple in tents, I doubt very many even heard what he was saying. And it says that there were far too many people for them to hear his message. So it was written and transported all over the place. Right. And maybe he sounds a lot stronger than what he is, but as you’re going through that and talking about the profile of this person addressing them, in my mind it’s elder Worthland standing up there just trembling, and yet the love just showing through, even the love of President Nielsen at the time, bracing him and holding him up as he delivered his speech.

[01:11:22] Speaker B: Do you have a lot of farm history? Do you come from ranchers or farmers? My mom’s side of the family still is very much like farm ranch. It’s like when I profile this person, I see my grandpa, right, who’s passed away. But it’s funny because I. But even until the day he passed away, he’s out there repairing his own, you know, garage and he’s out there cutting up wood and doing his own garden. It’s just like there’s something so honorable about that man. There’s something so man. I just. I feel sometimes like a sissy when I look. It’s like, you know, it was still such from the greatest generation, right? Like, if there’s something that needs to be done, we’ll go do it. And it’s hard for me, like, when we do profile, like, that’s who I see is just kind of a rugged. A rugged old man, right, but like a man, you know? And it’s just there’s.

I strive to live up to that profile, really. You know, there is something just strong about that, that it’s as I, you know, again, I feel bad beating this to death, but I do think it’s.

[01:12:41] Speaker A: Important, so it’s important. And that’s where my dad comes from, right? He grew up running sprinkler line and doing a lot of that work. And I think it’s one of the biggest challenges that we, and maybe even the youth of today’s generation has is how do we get that appreciation for work if everything comes easy?

[01:13:01] Speaker B: That’s right.

[01:13:02] Speaker A: And I mean, we’re coming fresh off of Venus when he had to labor so much to get that answer. And today if we look at our phone and we don’t have good signal, I mean, we feel like it’s the end of the world or things not working. In fact, Janessa and I, my wife and I were talking not too long ago.

Remember the days when you had to call the movie theater to find out what was playing?

[01:13:27] Speaker B: Totally.

[01:13:28] Speaker A: And they go through the whole string of shows. Oh, yeah.

[01:13:30] Speaker B: And you would push the buttons or whatever.

[01:13:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And you’d like, have your paper and your pencil all ready and you’re just waiting for them to list the show you’re waiting for. Right. And if you miss a showtime, you’re like, no, because you have to call back and you have to wait through the recording and you have to get to that. Like, we had to wait for answers. And now if I want to know what time a movie is playing, I mean, within a minute I can pull it up on my phone and I got it, and we just don’t have to wait for anything anymore. So I think it’s more than even just work ethic. I mean, I think it fits well with Benjamin because of his work ethic. But it’s a challenge that we have today is are we still willing to work for the answers and are we still willing to wait for the answers? And when we wrestle with the Lord and we try to find out what truth is and where we stand, and the Lord is willing to put us on the hook, I mean, go back to the apostles when they’re at the last supper. And he easily could have said, it’s Judas.

[01:14:31] Speaker B: Totally.

[01:14:32] Speaker A: But he says, one of you, and he doesn’t spare them the anxiety, the opportunity, let me put it that way. To wonder, to think, to go through those processes and to labor and to wrestle with themselves and asking that question, is it I? And maybe there’s something of King Benjamin that we can capture today and how we wait for answers from the Lord and how we’re willing to go through and labor with the scriptures and how do we incorporate those good values of work into that ethic, into our studies, into our prayers, into our testimonies.

[01:15:16] Speaker B: Completely agree with you.

You brought up the weight thing. So I just have to throw this in there. When I was coming back from a trip from Alaska last year, I’m a big fan of the band arcade fire, and they have a song called we used to wait. Oh, and I almost can’t listen to it. Anymore without just choking up and getting, like, way too emotional. Because the whole thing is, what you just described is, like, we used, we used to to. The whole thing is we used to write letters and we used to put them in the mail, and that would take time. And then we would wait for a response or whatever, and then the hardest line is, and sometimes it never came like that. Like that. That was the thing that we always kind of had lingering was that, like, we may wait for something and then that thing might not come, at least not on the timeline we had. And again, like, the profoundness of this song at a time when I was flying back, you know, luckily, it was in the middle of the night that we were flying back. Like, red eyes. The only time you can get back from Alaska because I’m just back in the back of this plane, like, sobbing, trying to write down all of my thoughts in my phone, because I’m like, I’m going to need to really process this at a certain point. But it was just flooding me, this idea of we used to wait and think of how much anxiety is being diagnosed in society now. Think of how much. Think of. I mean, it’s in a weird sort of way, strangely. Like, mental illness is almost, like, celebrated or worn as, like, a badge of honor, at least, you know, in certain circles or social medias. But look at, really look at, like, the beginning of Netflix. Look at the beginning of cell phones, right when you could really not have to wait. You could call somebody and not have to hope that they were home or have to leave a message with their mom to have them call you back when they get back. The thing, it’s like, you really kind of look at where anxiety and depression and so many of these kind of, like, these mental issues that have been just like, now flooding through society all happen. And it’s really when what? It’s when we got everything on demand, when it’s like you could watch any movie you wanted to ever, without having to go to blockbuster and hope that they had it in, or sit through commercials or sit through commercials or whatever that is. Or by the way, go buy a freaking CD and not just stream every song you ever wanted to. Because what it did is, by the way, it just devalued all of the art, basically, through all those things. Or it devalued all those things. It’s like by not having to sacrifice a single thing or stand in a line or sit around that blockbuster and hope somebody brings that movie back on the time they were supposed to so that you could rent it. Think of the. Think of, though, of what amazing catalysts those were for all the other things. Is, well, that movie’s not there, so let’s go discover something else. Or let’s go do you.

[01:18:14] Speaker A: Seems like it’s like those exposure to things that were not just our own.

[01:18:18] Speaker B: Exactly right. That’s exactly right. Is those things ended up potentially being the birth of something else beautiful by not just getting what we wanted all of the time. And again, like in that song by the arcade fire, which I would recommend to anybody, is we used to have to, like, deal with the idea that sometimes, like, we’re not going to get what we thought we wanted back.

Thank God, by the way.

You want to want. It’s like, why do you think we have anxiety running rampant now through our missionaries?

I don’t know. Maybe because we threw cell phones in front of their faces from the times that they were early teenagers and got them used to the idea that they can always just be able to get ahold of mom and dad whenever they wanted and be able to check in on their social media with their friends whenever they wanted and post and receive a response or whatever, you know, it’s like, oh, yeah. And then we rip that away from them. It’s like, oh, and we’re wondering why they’re all having massive anxiety issues.

It’s like we kind of did this to ourselves, right? And as much as if you asked me at 16 years old, hey, would you rather be able to get ahold of all your friends at all the time, listen to all of the songs you ever wanted to listen to all the time? Watch any movie at any time you wanted to, play any video game you wanted to? If you had asked me at 16, I’d been like, sounds sweet.

[01:19:50] Speaker A: That’s the dream.

[01:19:51] Speaker B: That’s the dream at 16, right?

At 42, I’m just like, it hurts me to think I can’t ever show my kids the beauty that it was when we didn’t have all of those things.

[01:20:07] Speaker A: There’s trade offs.

[01:20:08] Speaker B: There was a trade off there. It was a sacrifice. But I hurt thinking, man, I wish so badly I could take my kids back and be like, experience one summer of Logan in 1988 at the roller rink and at the dollar theater and down at the creek, throwing worms into a stream that doesn’t even have fish. But you thought it was fun to go fishing or just going over to your friend’s house and make believing you’re a ninja turtle with a stick out in the backyard, right?


Like, I wasn’t I don’t get to show them that beauty. The damage is done at this point anyways. I think we used to wait, dog.

[01:20:53] Speaker A: We used to wait. And I think, I think, I think.

[01:20:57] Speaker B: But don’t you think that that’s also influenced how you. How we come to expect answers back when we pray, when we have these experiences? I’m just saying, it’s like this plays into everything, dude.

[01:21:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I. 100%. And I think sometimes we lose focus when we’re praying, you know, almost, maybe a little bit ADHD on that. Like, you know, here’s what it is, God. Anyways, I got a lot going on. I’m just got a gut moving. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But I think there’s still opportunity to wait, right? I don’t think we’ve lost it all when we look at college entrance. Right. You put in your application, you still have to wait back to see if you got in.

[01:21:34] Speaker B: Kind of.

[01:21:35] Speaker A: Kind of. Right. Kind of you starting your business and branching out on your own. You didn’t know if this was going to be successful from the beginning. You didn’t know if this was going to work out. And when you work with artists and pulling them in, you don’t have a smash successful session right off the bat. Like, this is it, right? I mean, there’s still processes, there’s still progress, there’s still development, and there’s still. I mean, we kind of look at this in an oversimplified way, and I think you have to sometimes to get the broad angles, to get the approach and to get the appreciation for what we’re going through. But I still think there’s opportunity there. And I feel like even within the church, God hasn’t changed how he works with us. He’s the same today, yesterday, forever.

And he still lets that anxiety linger with us and lets us. He still provides us with those opportunities.

And I think, I mean, all of this to say.

I think Benjamin and his speech is a great medicine balm, something to help those who struggle today to help us who struggle today with the world and the age and we live in with everything right now. Benjamin reminds us of the important things, of laboring, of serving, of humility, of waiting on the Lord, and helps us reconnect in an important way that maybe helps treat some of these symptoms and these problems that we’re dealing with in. In a world that we live in today. I guess all of that to say, I think Benjamin is more applicable in today’s world than perhaps he even was in yesterday’s world.

[01:23:35] Speaker B: Amen. Jason always appreciate how much time and prep you put into this stuff. I feel like. I feel like I’m really excited to get into the next couple weeks too, because of how excited I am to go over King Benjamin, and I really do admire him and am excited to see what else he’s got to teach us. We appreciate questions comments? You can get a hold of us at the email address high deep dive.com that is.

We ended up going quite a bit over time today, so we’ll just get out of here until next week.

[01:24:08] Speaker A: See ya.

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